Fallen and Flawed

1. Unitarians believe that God is one person, not three.

This is outdated information. Today’s “Unitarians” include atheists, including “fundamentalist atheist” ministers who proclaim that God is a “non-existent being” and assert that belief in God “seems primitive” during Sunday “sermons”. One such “Humanist U*U minister declared that it was “false advertising” to call the Unitarian Church of Montreal a “church”. I agree, in light of this traditional meaning of Unitarian it is equally false advertising to call the UCM “Unitarian”

2. Unitarians reject the doctrine of the Trinity and the deity of Christ.

Correct but I thought most people knew that as well as number 1.

3. A Unitarian believes in the salvation of character but views the doctrine of total depravity offensive, unbiblical and immoral.

Close enough. I would say that modern Unitarians would consider the doctrine of total depravity to be offensive, if not immoral, even if it was Biblical.

4. Unitarians trace their history to the council of Nicea where Arianism was denounced.

True enough.

5. Unitarians also repudiate the doctrine and dogma of the virgin birth.

True enough.

6. Unitarians embrace the doctrine of biblical inspiration but abandon the doctrine of biblical infallibility.

True enough for those Unitarians who actually believe in God. The atheists obviously deny that the Bible is inspired by God because they don’t believe in God.

7. Unitarians who uphold sola scriptura are renamed nontrinitarianists.

Whatever.

8. Unitarians differ from deists in only one regard–Unitarians believe in a personal deity who acts on creation, while Deists see God as holding aloof from creation.

These days there are Deist Unitarians. I expect that very few contemporary Unitarians believe in a personal deity who acts on or in creation. Their bad. . .

9. Unitarians believe that Jesus and his disciples were Unitarian Christians.

Make that a small ‘u’ unitarian and you’re right. The capital ‘U’ Unitarian church did not become established prior to the mid-second millennium.

10. Unitarians deny the doctrine of bodily resurrection.

True enough. I am not aware of any contemporary Unitarian who believes in bodily resurrection. There may be a few out there but they would be considered to be “out there” by many Unitarians, especially the “fundamentalist atheist” ones. . .

11. However, most Unitarians believe in universal salvation.

True enough. That is more of a Universalist belief than a Unitarian one though.

12. Ralph Waldo Emerson, Charles Dickens, Florence Nightingale and Frank Lloyd Wright were famous Unitarians.

Ralph Waldo Emerson actually rejected what he called “Corpse-cold Unitarianism.” Kurt Vonnegut Jr. was also a famous Unitarian and he very generously allowed Canadian Unitarian Council Executive Director Mary Bennett to use his “picture of an asshole” to symbolize the self-vaunted “inclusiveness” of the Unitarian*Universalist religious community aka The U*U Movement. No joke. . .

13. Unitarians believe human reason and experience should be the final authority in determining spiritual truth.

Pretty much so but unfortunately too many Unitarians don’t actually act on that belief.

Robin: Thanks for the thorough reply. And the clarification and amplification of unitarians. I appreciate your input. And I do run into a handful of people who are surprised that Unitarians don’t believe in the Trinity, Christ as God. Your first point is amazing. And these fundamentalist atheist ministers preach sermons in churches? Four of those last five words are misused, like you pointed out. The Vonnegut anecdote is hilarious.

To think that Christ didn’t believe in His own deity defies the very definition of the word, “Christian.” However, the Old Testament often used a word that would be a fitting definition of Unitarian… “fool.”

I have to disagree Richard. “Christos” is the Greek equivalent of “Messiah”. It is entirely possible for someone to believe that Jesus was the promised Messiah of Biblical scripture but not necessarily the Deity in human form. Traditional monotheistic Unitarians, of which there seem to be very few left these days unless you want to include Jehovah’s Witnesses and Muslims of course (in which case there are close to a billion in the world) denied the deity of Jesus and the doctrine of the Trinity based on a quite rational interpretation of scripture. One does not have to be a “fool” to disbelieve the deity of Jesus. Even some of his own apostles had difficulty believing in his resurrection, right?

Nice point, Robin.

Robin, I agree with your statement as it stands. You’re right, some of the apostles did have difficulty believing in his resurrection, at least they did immediately after. My point was directed primarily at the fact that Unitarians believe that Jesus was also a unitarian, meaning that he didn’t believe in his own deity. That to me is pure foolishness.

You should go to the web site for the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations (http://www.uua.org) for more information.

For example, their “Beliefs Within Our Faith” starts by saying:

“Unitarian Universalism is a liberal religion that encompasses many faith traditions. Unitarian Universalists include people who identify as Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists, and others. As there is no official Unitarian Universalist creed, Unitarian Universalists are free to search for truth on many paths.”

Thanks for the link, Paul. So let me ask: Are all Unitarians, “Unitarian Universalists?” All the literature I looked at seemed to make a distinction between the two, mainly on that issue of universal salvation. Let me know. I’m curious.

I think the key to the answer to your question is the fact that there is no official Unitarian Universalist (often abbreviated “UU”) creed. UUs sometimes refer to themselves as Unitarians because it’s easier to say than “Unitarian Universalist”.

As someone above pointed out, the concept of universal salvation comes from the Universalist side. (The Unitarian and Universalist organizations merged in 1961 to form the UUA.)

I’ve got a couple of websites you might find interesting. http://www.UUAudioSermons.com has links to over 2200 recorded sermons by UU ministers. That might give you an idea of what UU ministers talk about. http://www.UUBlogSearch.com allows you to search blogs written by self-identified UUs to see what they’re talking about on any subject.

No, not all capital ‘U’ Unitarians are Unitarian*Universalists. In fact it would appear that there are very few bona fide monotheistic capital ‘U’ Unitarians within the ranks of the Unitarian*Universalist “Church” these days. The American Unitarian Conference was created by Unitarians who were fed up with the lack of respect for bona fide monotheistic Unitarians within The U*U Movement. There is another group calling themselves Biblical Unitarians who are presumably Biblically oriented Unitarian monotheists. Biblical Unitarians may be a “start up group rather than a “break away” group from the UUA. There is apparently another group called American Unitarian Reform whose philosophy reflects what I said about bona fide monotheistic Unitarians. I am not sure to what extent these non-UUA Unitarian groups are related to each other or in contact with each other.

Paul and Robin: Thank you for your contributions. So tell me, what do non-universalist unitarians do with the soul? The after life?

There’s an old joke about the difference between Unitarians and Universalists which partially answers your question.

The Unitarians, it is said, believe that humankind is too good to be condemned to hell; the Universalists believe that God is too good to condemn humankind to hell.

As far as heaven goes Unitarians have no fixed beliefs about that. I expect most Unitarians who believe in some form of afterlife will agree that they don’t really know what form it might take and will deal with it when the time comes.

Thanks for your input, Robin. And the joke. Classic. Take care.

Your article is too broad. There are Unitarians that do not hold to the list you have presented. This would include groups such as those on the Biblical Unitarian websites as well as the Christadelphians. Blessings

You people are the fools. Christians I mean. To uphold your arrogance is sickening. To calls poeple fools who do not believe what you believe, is mad, and shows the human side of your flawed religion. The only thing true christianity stands for is biasness, blashpemy, idoltry, and hypocrisy. Believe in your false idol as you wish, but don’t put people like me down, because I pray to GOD, and not to a mere mortal.

Jason W.

Jesus spends the whole new testament trying to tell people to wrship God, follow God, trust in God, love God, etc. He never said anything about worshipping him. Christians contradict themselves at every corner. They double talk to the best of their ability to try to prove their flawed beliefs. If they weren’t flawed, they wouldn’t need to double talk to try and convince people. I’ve read the bible, and been to christian churches for 30 years. Everything I have ever read in the bible points to God. Even Jesus points to God over and over again. Yet after his death, Christians turned around everything Jesus tried to teach them, and started worshipping the messenger, instead of worshipping God. This makes no sense.

The bible is written by Man. This is in no doubt 100 percent true. Man errs, over and over again. So obviously, the bible is used to teach, and shouldn’t be conceived as 100 percent perfect, and the actual word of God. It is the word of God perceived by man. Even at that, the bible says many many times, that you should not worship a false idol, that youshould never put man before God, that you should never worship false idols, that you should never worship, or pray to graven images. Yet over and over again, christianity does all of these things. But they still think they are the perfect religion with no discrepencies whatsoever? Christian as a religion, is severly flawed, and scewed from it’s original intention. It has been changed over time, to match what the christians want. That is why there are more different christian denominations than in any other religion, because none of them agree, yet it is supposed to be perfect, lol. This is why christians try to program children from a young age, so it will be easier to burn this outrageous idea in their young programmable minds.

And I must add, that your views of unitarians, unitarian universalists, and the UU churches are waaay off. You have intermingled them all to be the same things, which shows you have no knowledge about what you are trying to put down. Why don’t you at least take enough time out of your day, to go to wikipedia and update yourself on the things you are trying to put down. Calling a true theological unitarian, a universalist, or saying they are open to atheism or agnosticism, is a slap in their face. It would be the same as us calling christians muslims, or jehova’s witnesses.

If Jesus is your God, why do you even use the word God? Why don’t you just pray to Jesus and keep it at that? You differentiate, then say well they’re all the same. You say Jesus never commited blasphemy, then call him your God? Wouldn’t he have to commit blasphemy to be your god?

Thanks for your comments Jason W.

Good post on Christ as deity. And another one: A five step defense of Jesus’ deity.

By the way, I find your use of the Bible perplexing: In one breath you say it can’t be trusted then use it to defend your point. Can’t have it both ways, James.

And I apologize for not getting Unitarians right. But I don’t think you’ll be happy to hear that I got some of my info from Wikipedia. Maybe I shouldn’t use it? Besides, contrary to belief, I don’t have all the answers and I don’t pretend to be an authority on this topic. Part of the thrust on this post and those like it is to correct misinformation and fill gaps in my knowledge. So I appreciate people like you and Robin Edgar helping me out.

Take care and appreciate your comments.

Most of my comments on misunderstanding unitarians are directed towards the posts. And I understand that the whole differences in unitarians is too diverse to ever be exactly right. As for the bible, I didn’t say it couldn’t be trusted, or was wrong, I said it was fallible, and shouldn’t be taken as 100% correct and true. I still read and believe in the bible and Jesus. I don’t put down either. I just know to not take it as ‘the only word’. People quote the bible as if they are quoting God himself. I’m just pointing out that it is written by man, therefore, subject to errors.

I am at a crossroads in my religion right now. I came to this website looking for understanding, and clarification. I have a hard time going to a christian church, because they preach to Jesus, and believe that in order to get to heaven, you must believe Jesus is God himself. I don’t believe that. I believe Jesus died for us, died for our sins. But I don’t think you have to believe he is God for that to hold true, that’s 2 separate points. But I also have a hard time convincing myself to go to a UU church. I don’t want to listen to an atheist preach, that just seems hypocritical. So I’m not sure what to do. I don’t believe everything axactly like unitarians do either. Right now, I feel religiously isolated. Is there a such thing as a non-trinitarian church?

I may be misunderstanding in what non-trinitarian means as well. Do they pray to God, or Jesus? I’m thinking that non-trinitarians pray only to Jesus. What is so hard about believing in God, the bible, and praying to God? I don’t understand how this is so different.

To Richard DeVeau: The Old Testament never called people that believe in God fools. Besides, what else was there to believe in at that time. The Old Testament is pretty cut and dry if you ask me. I believe they were all unitarian, since not only was one of the supposed 3 not even born yet, but again, trinity is never even used or mentioned in the bible. Bad choice of words, buddy. Doesn’t it also say in the bible that you are never to call someone a fool???

Jason,

If you look at the context in which I wrote my original statement, it was addressing the fact that Unitarians state that Jesus himself did not believe in His own diety. It means ignoring the fact that Jesus himself said, “If you have seen me you have seen the Father.” And he said “The Father and I are one.”

While others may clearly claim that Jesus is not God, to say that He denied this fact himself is indeed foolishness.

I did not call people who believe in God fools, although the Apostle Paul called himself a fool for Christ, and I would have to say I too am such a fool.

Proverbs and Psalms are filled with sayings about fools and foolishness. One that comes to mind is Psalm 14:1, “The fool says in his heart there is no God.”

I can clearly appreciate the fact that you’re struggling spiritually. And let me propose something to you. Rather than get hung up on which church you should go to at the moment, or which theological points are right or wrong, I would encourage you to pray to the Lord for guidance and clarity. Reach out to Him in your heart.

Spend some time in Scripture with an open heart and mind and the Lord will begin to speak to your heart and show you some of the answers you seek, particularly as I see and hear your sincerity. So does He.

Know that Demian and I and others who read and post on this blog will be praying for you as well. While it can seem confusing and frustrating to be at a crossroad, it is also an exciting time to see and hear God in a new way.

Thanks for the comment Richard. I understand your point, even though I disagree. But nobody knows for sure, we can only go by what was written in the bible. Having said that, how can you say it is ‘foolish’ to believe that jesus is the SON of God? You quote 2 things from the bible. Ok, that don’t make it truth. It’s still a 50/50 debate. Let me quote some to you…

“Jesus answered them and said, ‘My doctrine is not mine, but His Who sent me.’” [John 7:16]
“He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father’s Who sent me.” [John 14:24]
“For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father Who sent me gave me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.” [John 12:49]
WILL==>
“Jesus said to them, ‘My food is to do the will of Him Who sent me, and to accomplish His work.’” [John 4:34]
“For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him Who sent me.” [John 6:38]
“…saying, ‘Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from me; nevertheless not my will, but Yours, be done.’” [Luke 22:42]
POWER==>
“I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is righteous, because I do not seek my own will but the will of the Father Who sent me.” [John 5:30]
“I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one Who sent him.” [John 13:16]
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you’. If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I” [John 14:28]
“Jesus said to them, ‘If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but He sent me.’” [John 8:42]
“To sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” [Matthew 20:23]

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” [Mark 13:32]
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” [Matthew 24:36]
“So Jesus answered them, ‘My teaching is not mine, but His Who sent me.’” [John 7:16]

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven.” [Matthew 7:21]
“And the Father Himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape.” [John 5:37]
“And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.’” [Mark 10:18]
“And I do not seek my own glory; there is One Who seeks and judges.” [John 8:50]

And let me say this one again, “I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one Who sent him.” [John 13:16]

So then Richard, how is it foolish to believe in what the bible says? I know you will come back with 50 more verse, but that’s my point. It is not clear answerable, because we do not have enough knowledge to say for sure, so don’t write off everone who doesn’t believe your views as being wrong. This is the arrogance that gives christians a bad reputation.

Richard:I can clearly appreciate the fact that you’re struggling spiritually. And let me propose something to you. Rather than get hung up on which church you should go to at the moment, or which theological points are right or wrong, I would encourage you to pray to the Lord for guidance and clarity. Reach out to Him in your heart.

Thanks Richard, I appreciate that statement, it means a lot too. I will do that. No matter who you talk to, God always seems to have better answers.

Jason,

I think you may have misunderstood my point, or more likely,I didn’t explain myself clearly.

Given all the Scriptures you just quoted, we are totally in agreement!

My point was this: some have stated that Jesus himself did not believe He was the Son of God.

This is what I meant when I stated that this was a foolish belief. It’s clear from the Scriptures you just quoted, and there are others, that Jesus did indeed believe He was the Son of the Living God.

To claim, as some have, that Jesus thought otherwise is pure foolishness.

I hope this makes more sense.

I never said that I believed that Jesus was not God’s Son. In fact, I not only believe this, the last forty years of my life have been anchored in and centered around this very belief.

Sorry for not being clear!

And you are still in my prayers, Jason. I’m confident that God will guide you as you stand at this crossroad you mentioned.

Huh? I guess I don’t understand. The quotes I pointed out clearly show Jesus saying I am not God, I am just the messenger. I don’t see this as foolish, unless you are calling Jesus foolish. To me, and what I read and understand the bible to say, Jesus is clearly stating that he is a man who came to tell about God. To put any man, including Jesus, as high as God himself, is Idolatrous.

The Son, is not the creator, the creator, created the son.

I know of at least a billion people that agree with me on the trinity, so obviously it’s not as cut and dry as you make yourself believe it to be.

Okay, Jason, now I understand what you meant.

Well, clearly you and I will simply need to agree to disagree.

Demian, the author of this blog, has covered the trinity in great depth, and can certainly do more justice to the topic that I can. Here’s a link that you can look at if you’re interested:

http://www.fallenandflawed.com/thoroughly-painless-guide-doctrine-trinity/

Our differences aside, Jason, I’ll continue to pray with you as I’ve stated earlier.

Thanks Richard.

I appreciate the thoughts. I will look at this link, but I doubt it will change my mind. I’ve went to church for many years and just bit my tongue when it came to Jesus. I can no longer bite my tongue. This makes it hard to go to church, which leaves me with no spiritual outlet, other than praying. I may not believe the same way, but I do believe in the bible, and I believe in Jesus, just not exactly the same way. I would love to know what to label me as though. I was thinking monotheistic unitarian. I don’t want to call myself something if it doesn’t truly represent who I am. But I fully believe with my heart in one God, Infinite in his only form.

And I appreciate the debate, I hope I didn’t offend anyone. I love and respect everyone’s religion. I just wish I fully knew my own.

James, have you considered the verses in which Jesus was going to be stoned for blasphemy? John 8:48-58 for example. What do you do with that?

By the way, no offense, here sir, at all. I,too, appreciate the discussion. And I’m with you–I wish I knew my faith better. As Paul says, perfection in our understanding will only occur in the next life, right now we are seeing dimly.

In the meantime, we have the Bible, tradition, the Holy Spirit, each other, faithful teachers who can help us come along and learn the truth.

And I’m sure when I die I’ll be a wee bit shamed when I learned I was off on a few things. Understand, I’m coming at this thing half-cocked and part of the beauty of a blog is to get corrected.

Take care sir, and hope to hear from you again.

James,

I don’t think you’ve offended anyone, certainly not me.

And the label I like best is the one given to us by our Father… beloved child of God.

May He guide you and fill your heart with His love.

Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, “He is our God.”

Our God, meaning, your God, my God, and Jesus’ God.

But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word.

He knows God, cool. I’m glad to know that Jesus knows God. Maybe he can help me know God too.

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.‟

I am what? Christians take an open ended statement like this and pass it off as thier best defense? Abraham, let me first point out, is a mortal, secondly, we don’t even know if he really existed. The only tells of him is in the bible. Even if somehow, even though I don’t see it, Jesus existed before Abraham, that don’t make him God. Maybe God gave him insight. Maybe he seen things, like in the revelations. But he doesn’t clearly state that he is God anywhere. But he clearly points out differences in him and the Father. So still, I don’t get it.

He also states to the Jews, I am NOT God, I am God’s Son. If he were God he would have said, ‘I am God’ He does not, ever, say anything near that in the bible. If christians only defense are those 2 little words, then they have done a lot of digging through the bible to come up with that, and it holds little merit, against the thousands of places in the bible that he unquestionably differentiates him and God.

Well, whenever you get a chance, take a peek at those links I offered before. You’ll see that it’s not just those two words, which, by the way is synonymous with saying “I am God,” that provide a argument for Jesus affirming his own deity.

However, I have a feeling that even if Jesus said, “I am God” in such a way that satisfied your demand, you’d still wouldn’t believe.

That’s just my hunch. Good talking to you.

Quotes from Jesus, if Jesus were God.

“Jesus answered them and said, ‘My doctrine is mine, because I am God.’” [John 7:16]
“He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is mine because I am the Father.” [John 14:24]
“For I have spoken on my own authority, because I am God.” [John 12:49]
WILL==>
“Jesus said to them, ‘My food is to do my will and to accomplish my work.’” [John 4:34]
“For I have come down from heaven, to do my own will.” [John 6:38]

“I can of myself do everything. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is righteous, because I am God.” [John 5:30]

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you’. If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going home, for I am the Father” [John 14:28]

The bible does not talk in this sense, He talks about himself in 1st person, and talks about God in 3rd person. People say if God has no limits why can’t he be God and a person at the same time? Well that is just stupid. God is God. Why can’t you believe that if God can do anything, then he will just help Jesus understand what message to send and then let man make their own judgement, sense he did give us free will. I believe God was IN Jesus, the same as I believe God is in all of us, I just believe Jesus had a little bit more holy spirit than the average man. God was in Jesus, but he was not Jesus. God is infinite, and has no form. To believe he is anthropomorphic is arrogant of man.

I don’t know if I would or not, would you believe he wasn’t God if he clearly stated he wasn’t? Because I see that clearly over and over again in the bible, and christians seem to just ‘look over’ those statements in the bible.

That would make the case easy. But I don’t see this pervasive dismissal you suggest.

Even if, and I don’t believe this, but, even if God did take the form of a man, is he not still God?? Didn’t he still say not to pray to graven images?? Wouldn’t you still thank God for all he has done? Even at that, I still don’t believe God would come to earthas a man, without fully letting it be known. Why come down to halfheartedly prove a point? God don’t work that way.

I just read the bible, and use common sense. Kind of an Occams Razor kind of point I guess.

Which is a legit approach, but remember: Our “common sense” is notoriously selfish and deceptive.

Take care, James.

beloved child of God, I like that Richard. To the point that’s for sure. At least we all agree that there is a God, and everything in life, and after life should be about him, and he is worthy of all praise.

Juat wondering, why does everyone keep calling me James? lol

JASON: So sorry! Talk about trick of the eye.

One of the reasons I’m guessing is that there’s another frequent contributor who goes by James W.

That’s where my brain has been taking me each time I look at your name.

That’s my excuse. Richard?

Ooops! I don’t have an excuse. Sorry, Jason!

That’s alright, I understand. Thanks for your time, and comments. Hopefully your insight will help me spiritually. I look forward to reading more of your posts.

Jason

From the sound of it you come across as a classic Christian Unitarian. There are *some* Unitarian*Universalist churches where your beliefs would be quite welcome but may others where you would be rather less than welcome. You might want to look into the American Unitarian Conference and American Unitarian Reform although the chances of them having an actual church in your area are quite slim.

Thanks Robin, I looked this up and found a website called http://www.christianmonotheism.com. It has a lot of video tapes and audiotapes that I will be listening too. The only church in my area is a UU church. I guess I can try it out and see what it is like. It is better than not going at all. I may end up liking it more than I think.

Robin, thanks for your help.

Hi Jason and all
I have read all that was said. I am leaning toward the Biblical Unitarian view. I did find an excellent Greek/Latin site that has great incite.
http://www.greeklatinaudio.com/faq.htm and also do a search on Truth Matters Radio. They had some excellent radio interviews before they got kicked off the Trinitarian radio station.
The Biblical Unitarian site also has Fellowship options. Unfortunately they had nothing here in rural Wisconsin unless I started a home fellowship.

Thanks Chris, I will look into this.