10 Questions with an Agnostic: Lorette C. Luzajic
**Part of the 10 Questions with an Atheist series.**
This is a first in my 10 Questions with an Atheist series: a bona fide agnostic.
Who’s my agnostic? A prolific writer named Lorette C. Luzajic.
Lorette writes seven columns across the web, has published hundreds of poems and a few short stories, and freelances articles on just about any topic.
She has two books: The Astronaut’s Wife: Poems of Eros and Thanatos, and Weird Monologues for a Rainy Life.
I first ran into Lorette at her Pillars of Faith series on Daniel Florien’s Unreasonable Faith blog.
I liked that she hadn’t completely defected from theism, so I asked her for an interview. She kindly accepted.
Without further delay…Lorette Luzajic.
1. How would you describe yourself: atheist, agnostic or skeptic? Explain.
Right now I guess agnostic and skeptic describe me best. I prefer to say I’m in the process of “converting to reason”. A phrase I came up with the other day kind of sums up where I’m at: I can’t be sure there is no God, but I’m becoming less and less certain that there is one.
2. When did you know you were an agnostic? Did it scare you or was it a non-issue?
Twenty years ago I broke away from the destructive chains of fundamentalist Christianity. For two decades I explored complementary faiths. I was drawn to very mystical things and continued to study the message of Christ, but not in church. A year and a half ago, I joined a very progressive, social-justice oriented church and was blessed by tremendous healing within an incredibly loving sanctuary. My teacher, the Rev. Brent Hawkes, is one of the most tremendous human beings in the world.
I am also blessed to have a Buddhist monk teacher and friend over the years who gives perspective to my ups and downs.
Through the years I also studied mythology and women’s history, and stopped believing ‘other people’s’ faith meant they were hell bound a long time ago. Faith is an expression of God, I believed, not a reason to kill other people because yours is the right expression. That was missing the point entirely in my mind.
But this losing my religion thing happened quickly and unexpectedly just after Obama’s inauguration. I had posted a few blogs, one for fun- Sexiest President Ever- and one about great ways to celebrate National Sanctity of Life day, nowhere near an abortion clinic.
In the latter I mentioned a dozen or so ways a person could champion life that were far more pressing and also illustrated the calamity we have on our hands with so many unwanted children or poor or orphaned children. To me it seems unmerciful to insist on bringing babies into the world when there are millions who need our immediate attention. I was careful to remain neutral on my own views about abortion, simply to illustrate other ways we should be directing our mercy. Life doesn’t end at birth! For example, there are hundreds of child brothels in the Philippines. Maybe the Pope can let the impoverished Catholics there use birth control for crying out loud.
My in box became flooded with the most idiotic, puerile, militant ‘evangelism’ about ‘babykiller Obama’ because he had lifted the ban on donating funds to third world health centres. Bush withheld because those centres “might” counsel abortion. And so millions did not get contraception or health care they needed. Obama was right to resume support of these agencies- this measure prevents pain and suffering and the orphaning of children. No Muslim or Catholic country hands out abortion like candy!
The “Christian” mail I got was racist, sick, sad, sorry, disgusting, and when I began to look around the web to see what these Christians were thinking, I couldn’t believe what I saw. Obama was accused of everything from being a Muslim terrorist to being black because he was b***-f***ing in doodoo, not to mention antichrist, death threats to ni**ers, and stuff that made Fred Phelps look like Mother Teresa.
At that moment, I suddenly wondered who brought the message forward from 2000 years ago that it ended up here? When I began reading more about the “great theologians” and messengers, all I found was murder, death, war, and the ground crumpled out from beneath me.
I couldn’t help it.
Our family worshipped John Calvin- we blamed the women burnings on Catholics in our house, but John Calvin himself was personally responsible for much of it. How could I trust any of these messengers?
The walls of Jericho came tumbling down, let me tell you. I had built- we all have- my house on the sand. I wrote a small book during the first blasts of the trumpet- nearly 10 thousand words of despair at all of Christianity.
Of course it is terrifying to lose your faith! People always think that scientists or others were ‘demon possessed’ or that atheists are trying to sell their evil religion.
Charles and his peers were ripped apart spiritually by their new discoveries. Many of his peers committed suicide because of what they found. John Wesley, other theologians also had great doubt. Writer Lucy Maud Montgomery (Anne of Green Gables) was married to a preacher who spent his life having nervous breakdowns because he was terrified of going to hell. He was Christian, but couldn’t be sure under John Calvin’s predestination theory whether he was chosen or not.
Lee Strobel is far guiltier for his “Case For” series because he HAS an agenda, where the others didn’t, doubt or evidence against their structured belief came to them.
For example, Lee gives us the idea that Bart Ehrman the Bible historian has a grudge against faith and is setting out to disprove the Bible, and that one of his facts was wrong. The fact is, Bart is tremendously objective when presenting scholars’ viewpoints, and Lee would have to refute a few thousand facts before the scholar could be discredited.
But the further outside of it I get, the less emotional it will become. I’m reading with an open mind. I’ve never thought Hinduism, Islam, wicca, etc ‘were true’ – just varying histories and philosophies. Why was my cultural inheritance any different?
When I was young, all I read was Christian apologetics, and then I wasn’t reading about it much at all. Now I’m reading all the forbidden books- not just on atheism, but on archeology, science, evolution, Bible history, history, Sumer, Mesopotamia, early Christianity, Gnosticism, the Inquisition, the Burning Times, Catholic history, the Popes, the Reform, canonization, paganism and pagan history, pre-Biblical history (we’re not supposed to know there IS one!), who wrote the Bible, inerrancy etc.
Once the Bible was considered so dangerous to Christianity that the Church was its only interpreter and you could be burned at the stake for having your own copy. So I’m reading that, too, and not just the verses I grew up on. The whole thing.
3. Ever suffer persecution as an agnostic?
Not yet. It can’t be any worse than the sick things I’ve been called for being a thinking Christian. Never by atheists. Only by holier than thou Christians. Faggot lover, communist, leftie, ‘Alinsky acolyte’ (had to look that one up) and so on…what part of Jesus was a commie’ do these people not get?
4. What do you want to accomplish with your life?
Simply to experience life as fully as possible. To be kind to kind people and neutral to those who piss me off. To recycle. To read another six thousand books. To create another 500 paintings, and most importantly, to finish all of the writing projects in my head or that are partially done.
5. Who are your heroes? Why?
Farmers and workers who grow our food. These nameless people work endlessly for us to eat.
Sacha Baron Cohen-what a genius. He was able to expose the truth about human nature over and over again.
Madonna. Here’s a woman who doesn’t throw in the towel when someone calls her a slut. Who tries new things, even if they fail. Who thinks big. Who is not afraid of women being sexual and intelligent at any age. Who is a massive supporter of the arts.
Seriously, we don’t know what the world would be like without her. Feminism might have died, or been sexless. People might still be afraid to speak to/befriend/partner with people of other races and cultures, or gay people. Some still are. It takes a lot of courage to be so outspoken, to face constant criticism. Even the adulation must get exhausting.
In my more religious moments I wondered whether or not Madonna might actually be the lady ‘messiah.’ With her birth name and Catholicism, her inexplicable interest in Jewish mysticism, and her ability to influence the world to issues like women, voting, AIDS, world hunger, Africa, homophobia…
I wondered if she knew, or if fate was just happening. I thought God wouldn’t be sexist but waited until the world was ready, that he sent his incarnations at different times to change the world. But I’m not so religious anymore!
6. What would you like to accomplish with your blog?
Pillars of Faith was born out of my investigation into ‘the messengers’ of Christianity. I was shocked to find even the most holy were utterly twisted. I had had no idea Martin Luther said such sick things about Jews, for example.
I wasn’t taught in Sunday School that the early church fathers called women an open sewer and debated over whether or not we have a soul. People need to know this stuff, so they can assess whether the rest of the teachings are coming from a person who is ‘of God’ , to assess the motivations or authority of that person.
I was force fed the need to respect the teachings of Calvin, James Dobson, etc without really knowing the whole story or thinking for myself.
If Madonna is criticized for praying with faggots, shouldn’t those who burned them at the stake be brought to light? For all we hear today from jokers like Dobson about homo pedophiles, shouldn’t we know that John Knox was a senior when he married a 15 year old girl? Shouldn’t we know just what St. Augustine thought about women?
Many people, even scholars like my dad don’t even know some of the stuff behind the scenes. Some of the things he didn’t even believe, even when I showed it to him, like the garbage about stoning rebellious children. The answer is always “those aren’t real Christians” and that’s why there are two gazillion branches of Christianity. And always were!
The early church also had many interpretations. I only knew these things peripherally before my deconversion experience began. It’s ironic that I’ve never read the Bible this much, and it’s a much fuller experience when I read it now with an open mind. I thought I had been.
The column is also a branch of my larger oeuvre, called Fascinating People. This is my ‘life’s work,’ started last year- to research and write essay length biographies of anyone and everybody. We don’t have time to read a full bio about every person, but should get to know the interesting figures in history and today.
This column branched into several for various magazines- Fascinating Writers for Book Slut, and two others. In a way, this is the Fascinating Christians branch, but for Daniel Florien’s Unreasonable Faith, I wanted them to be shorter and snappier.
7. What’s your favorite part about being an agnostic?
So far? The reading.
8. Are there any Christian concepts that you respect?
Yes, absolutely. I’m a writer and poet, so I may always retain my cultural inheritance of being Christian in a symbolic or metaphorical way. The stories of Jesus are profound. I believe in feeding the poor.
The Old Testament stories aren’t ones I avoid anymore. I studied mythology a lot before, so I already knew that many of them are rewritten over and over all over the world, that they are taken from pagan literature.
The writing of Sumer was all psalms, lamentations…mythology was full of war gods, plagues, floods- we used the stories to explain natural phenomenon, as well as to edify the soul. But even when you are a non-literalist Christian, you aren’t supposed to believe these stories didn’t happen the way they happened.
I believe everything that Jesus said. This new Calvinism, this reconstructionist and dominionist and tribulation theology- this stuff is the antichrist, not Obama or liberalism or even secularism.
These philosophies focus on hating sinners and heathens and blaming the criminal and the poor on their lack of blessing from God, instead of on the devastating effects of our greed and consumerism.
But Jesus made it very clear who he was. I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat. I was sick, I was a prisoner, I was thirsty. Jesus was the poor! He was poor! He didn’t drive around in a Benz dripping in flashy watches, owning six horse ranches, yelling out his hatred for homosexuals and heathens. He said if you want to be perfect, sell what you have, give to the poor, and follow me.
So don’t tell me that I’M the one who picks and chooses my verses, people.
9. Does it irritate you when Christians try to share their faith with you?
No, but I have withdrawn from my church and my parents’ church so that as this process evolves for me, I won’t be swayed by emotion.
At my church, I feel the presence of God and at my Dad’s, I feel abject loathing for the idiocy of Christians. And I don’t want these emotions to affect my reading.
Engaging in conversation is welcome. My dad and I have been talking about it a lot, and it’s great for me because for the first time I’ve been strong enough to stand up for true morality- and tell him, sex is not sin, being born gay is not sin, being female is not sin, sin is genocide, torturing heretics, war, killing heathens, coming over and robbing land that already belonged to people, thinking black people weren’t human, wife beating, not hiring people because they are gay or Hindu or whatever, ‘converting’ from gay and marrying some poor woman just to look Christian, lying, etc. Anyone who says ‘savage’ heathens were cannibals or made human sacrifices need only read the Old Testament and the history of the Church to see that human barbarism is universal, and we should be moving forward, away from it, not backwards.
10. Were you ever a Christian? Would you go back?
I couldn’t go back to what I was as a child, no way. I understand now that if I were born into a devout Hindu family I would have been a devout Hindu. If I had been born into a casual Catholic family, I would likely have been a casual Catholic. We are taught what to be. I’m not sure if I my conversion to reason process will leave me metaphorically Christian for the joy of my cultural inheritance, because right now I feel I must make a stand far, far apart from the representatives of this faith. It’s hard to give up the spirituality that has defined you, but ironically, “Christians” are making it morally imperative for me to do so.
Lorette, thank you so much for sharing and holding nothing back. So…any questions or comments out there?
Other 10 Questions with an Atheist interviews: Hemant Mehta, Eshu, Robert Madewell, Luke Muhlhauser and The Postman. Upcoming interviews: Billy the Atheist and John Loftus.
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21 Comments to 10 Questions with an Agnostic: Lorette C. Luzajic
Thanks Lorette. It sounds like you admire Jesus, yet are disheartened by all the sin and self-righteousness that’s found among professing Christians (both now and in the past). In my view this simply points to the beauty/perfection of Christ and the depravity of us as sinners (and our need for a Savior). How do you view this enormous contrast? Do you consider Jesus to be the Son of God and Savior for our sins, or is He just a “better” guy than the rest of humanity? Or perhaps you have a totally different take 
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Curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks again.
Demian FarnworthMay 13, 2009
Thanks again for doing this Lorette. I really appreciate it.
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Hey, I wanted to key in on something you said in Question no. 10: “We are taught what to be.” You said this in the context that people who grow up in Hindu or Catholic families grow up to be Hindu or Catholics. I couldn’t agree with you more. And I think you’re point is that you were a fundamentalist because you grew up in a fundamentalist family. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re not trying to prove more than that are you?
Adam DeClercqMay 13, 2009
Wow, Lorette, thanks for sharing. That was enlightening to say the least. Please believe that many, many, many true God-following Christians are able to listen to you, engage with you, and not do or condone many of the evils you have listed.
But I do have one question for you. You said this: “human barbarism is universal.” I agree that is true. Doesn’t it break your heart? It does mine! And it only confirms that we ALL are (sorry Demian) fallen and flawed. We can’t do this on our own because the barbarism is universal. Humans can’t escape it-not without the gift of mercy from Jesus. We will not be able to overcome the hunger, killing, sexism, etc. on our own. We simply can’t. I find it reassuring to know that my goodness won’t save me, ’cause it just isn’t good enough. Nor is yours. No one’s goodness is enough, we always return to our barbarism. Keep that in mind, and I truly hope that God will move in your life, enough to help you see past the flaws of the many men (because that’s all they are-just men) you have referred to. -Adam
Thanks for listening, friends. I’m more than happy to hear your stories, too, but am not interested right now in ‘proving Christianity.’ I’m very well versed in every aspect of doctrine, apologetics, errancy vs. inerrancy, etc. Whether or not I recover a faith in the Divine remains to be seen, but as far as a literal interpretation of Christianity, well, that’s over. These stories are universal and every single story in the Old and New Testament are versions of other stories. Those messengers who brought these particular versions forward had greedy and power-mongering and women-hating reasons to do so, from Tertullian to Calvin to today’s popes. Thousands of other scriptures, books, ideas were burned by the church, so we will never know the whole story, just the story put together and called ‘inerrant’ so we would fear hell if we didn’t remain under the rule of this philosophy.
Exploring the remnants of those lost texts, finding older stories and histories, looking at archeology- I’m finding it all very fascinating, but not nearly as facile as the church wants us to think. These stories resonate with something in our nature that we need, yes, but that should not be at the expense of other stories by other cultures.
I do not doubt that many, many Christians throughout all of time were incredibly kind, wise, caring people from Johnny Cash to C.S. Lewis to my dad, and all of you. Thank you for your kind thoughts.
Loretta,
I find your insight, intelligence, wit and insatiable curiosity captivating.
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I also think it’s unfortunate that the stumbling blocks for your faith have been misinformed, misogynistic, ill-mannered ignoramuses who believe they speak for God.
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They don’t speak for mine.
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I’m delighted to hear that you’re reading the Bible with an open mind. Because I believe in doing so God will also open your heart to who He is truly, not how someone has interpreted Him to be.
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Thank you so much for being so open and candid.
Demian FarnworthMay 13, 2009
Hey Lorette, I don’t think anyone is asking you to “prove Christianity.” I just wanted to know where you were going with that statement. And I think Ryan was wondering the same thing. We just wanted you to expand, which I think is fair.
Lorette,
Do you believe that agnostic and atheistic are mutually exclusive? If so, what’s the difference?
Also, do you avoid the term atheist because of the negative reputation it has?
Hey, sorry Demian, that wasn’t specifically aimed at your comments at all, just general I guess. As far as expanding on the statement- well, it’s fairly simple: if I was born in Saudi Arabia, I would be a devout Muslim. If I were born in Mexico, I would probably be Catholic. Everyone is as convinced theirs is right as we are. Of course, I realize that “Christianity is different” because it “really is the right one” or “the faith that makes sense”. But what I’m trying to point out is that everyone feels that way, and it’s not ‘by grace’ that we are born into Christian America (Canada for me) and all those heathens are born in China or Africa. It’s that religion is a part of culture, just like recipes and holiday customs…it used to be that Christians didn’t even believe black people or native people were ‘people’ or that women had souls! They were still debating recently over whether unbaptized babies went to heaven.
So yes, because our family was fundie, so was I.If we were atheist, I would have been already. Sure, SOME change paths, but by and large, we stick with our culture. Atheists aren’t suddenly going out to kill and maim. Of course, ‘our righteousness is like filthy rags’ so ‘good atheists’ aren’t really good. But the more I study, the more I see that religion has fuelled the worst atrocities of history, and not the other way around.
I sure don’t want to convert anyone to disbelief. I am only sharing my views, and some known facts- that history is told by the victors, from their point of view, and the rest of the stories have in part been burned to the ground. But as more scholars work to put together some of the pieces from all over the world, it becomes more and more apparent that my cultural heritage is also ‘legends’ and not ‘the one and only real story.’
Thanks again to everyone for your thoughtful comments.
Robert,
I avoid the term atheist because I’m new to this and cannot use it with conviction, though I have used it for ‘dramatic effect’ in sharing my crisis of faith with my family! “I cannot know there is no God, but I’m becoming less and less certain that there is one.” I think this is currently the clearest reflection of my state of faith right now.
I admire both those who call themselves Christians and those who call themselves atheists, but certainty does not truth make, or everything would be true! So I think agnostic is most fair.
JulieMay 13, 2009
Lorette, thank you for participating! I enjoyed hearing your perspective.
I actually went down a similar road a few years back. I wandered away from my conservative Christian roots and found myself more at home with those working for social justice and human rights in the liberal camp. I began reading and researching and I became appalled by much of Christianity’s history and all of the lies and deceit. I was convinced that my mind was more open than it had ever been and that my biases had been abandoned, but looking back, it’s apparent to me that my bitterness and disappointment with Christians had caused me to simply replace my evangelical bias with a liberal, secular bias and interpret reality through that lens.
My question for you is this: Do you believe it is possible to learn with a truly open mind?
Do you have any methods for cross-checking yourself to be sure you haven’t simply shifted from one bias to another?
Demian FarnworthMay 13, 2009
Thanks for clarifying, Lorette. The reason I asked is because I’ve heard that argument used a lot…and while nobody says it…I think what they are trying to do is point out that culture defines truth. Which is a bad way to go. Relativism always is…
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Then you’d have to allow abusive families into that mix. Then you’d have to say that the believers in a flat world circa 10th Century were right because that’s what they were taught. I guess this ties into Julie’s question above, but do you believe in objective truth?
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Also: I’d love to hear you respond to Ryan’s question [I wanted to ask a similar question.]
Ryan said:
Do you consider Jesus to be the Son of God and Savior for our sins, or is He just a “better” guy than the rest of humanity? Or perhaps you have a totally different take
The reason I’d like to know is you quote Jesus in your interview, implying authority. I’m curious what you make of his other statements, “Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand” or “I am the Truth, the Way and the Life. No man can come to God except through me,” for example.
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Robert: Good questions. Thanks for asking.
JamesMay 13, 2009
Lorette,
I sure don’t want to convert anyone to disbelief
If you don’t mind me asking: why not? I got the impression that you feel as though you are better off without religion. Do you believe that some people are better off with it?
LoretteMay 13, 2009
James- I’m not sure I can decide for everyone how they would be better off. If they aren’t hating, killing, and torturing heretics but living with joy and community, I have no complaints. It would be a sad world without the divine music of Mahalia Jackson or the paintings of Christian Europe.
Ryan- savior/better guy question: I’m leaning to better guy quite frankly the more I learn about history, and how many Jesus stories there are the world over, preceding him. There are many holes- like his entire childhood until age 30- where was he? Surely the long awaited birth was something to celebrate and then where did he go? Gnostic scriptures add more the stories that add a different take on “the kingdom of God is at hand.” I could interpret “I am the way the truth and the life no man cometh to the father but by me” easily to say Jesus is the poor, and the poor are truth- he says so over and over. So those who do not help the poor or care for them cannot be part of divinity. This would be very inclusive interpretation, and include other religions as well. Finally, I cannot trust the Bible to be literal and much has been added or subtracted. this is what I”m studying now. No, I don’t think anyone can be totally objective. I do respect Jesus because I beleive the things he said were mystical, beautiful and moral. I am no longer sure that traditional Christian interpretations are the right ones, though. The very early Christian church was the kind of stuff we would all call heresy by the way- unusual weird stuff, and lots of sects that varied in weirdness.
Yes bitterness surely influenced by spiritual change. But it kickstarted me to start finding out whether or not I could trust the messengers of the faith and the bible itself, and in short, the answer has so far been no. But I’m not done yet.
Thanks again everyone.
SteveMay 13, 2009
Lorette – thank you for your honesty. As I read your comments I sensed of anger over the atrocities from man’s attempts understand Christianity. What is your perspective on forgiveness and is there is need for it?
JoshuaMay 13, 2009
“I believe everything that Jesus said. This new Calvinism…this stuff is the antichrist, not Obama or liberalism or even secularism.
These philosophies focus on hating sinners and heathens and blaming the criminal and the poor on their lack of blessing from God, instead of on the devastating effects of our greed and consumerism.”
Lorette, you said in one of your first comments that you are “well versed in every aspect of doctrine”, yet you make some pretty bold claims in the quote above about those who are considered new calvinists. I have certainly never heard or read anything from John Piper (or any other solid expositor) that would substantiate the claim you made about those who espouse the “new calvinism” that Damian wrote about. In fact, I would say he teaches the exact opposite.
Thanks Joshua, “well-versed” sure can’t mean I know everything about every speaker, thinker or church, of course. I am familiar with John Piper but not familiar enough to comment, so I’ve earmarked the name to at least read a few of his thoughts.
The forgiveness question: this is a tricky one for me that I can’t really make a clear statement on, yet. It’s probably best to just say “I don’t know” which is usually the best thing to say when you don’t…I was raised to think we are all vile and punishable by eternal hellfire. That God and Devil fought over our souls. I no longer believe evil is ‘from hell.’ Humans can be plenty evil all of their own volition. But some evil is like bedbugs or floods- ‘nature’ just like some nature is flowers and beauty. By this I mean simply that people make mistakes, and sometimes aggression hormones go haywire. Many serial killers for example have not just emotional abuse in their childhood but major brain damage that happens when a child is beaten. So even though that resulting violence is unbelievably horrifying and sad, it is not, in that case, from the person’s volition. The sooner we stop demon-chasing and find ways to repair damaged brain tissue, the better. Great strides are being made. That’s just an extreme example. Does dude need forgiveness? Well, yes, of the victim’s family, of society, but we can’t just dish out forgiveness to condone evil.
Then there’s evil that’s not brain damage and yes, every person must be accountable for their actions. But I’m starting to switch gears and understand that our heinous racism, sexism, murderous impulses, and so on are because WE HAVE NOT YET EVOLVED FULLY. Once man hunted one another for food and sport, and not just the primitive devil worshippers, either. Christians have long loved death sports and did it in Jesus’ name. Hating gays and mixed race couples and poor people is because we haven’t fully evolved. 10 thousand years of civilization is nothing, and we’ve come a long way…
The sacrifice is an old ritual, from the beginning,always a god sacrificed to result in the salvation of the tribe or the world. Even the cross is a symbol used in hundreds of world myths. Blood as atonement, bread and wine is an old symbol, all of these symbolic elements predate the Biblical stories.
So right now I”m immersed in learning these stories.
again, thanks for everyone’s comments.
Lorette, you said:
Christians have long loved death sports and did it in Jesus’ name.
Wow. Where did that come from?
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And just so you know, God and the devil don’t fight over souls and sin didn’t come from hell but yes, man IS vile, as you pointed out.
sorry, demian, i didn’t mean to offend with my dramatic language- but “where did that come from?”
-the crusades
-the conquest of Latin America- reading the history of this, yes, the Spaniards loved to hunt down, torture, and kill, parading heads of Indians on sticks, dragging dead bodies by horse to desecrate them, holding the cross up all the while
-hunting Canadian east coast Indians for sport-these heathens weren’t real people, and they were made into dog food for the pets of Christian kings
-slicing tongues out of native children for speaking their own language, in the name of Jesus
-not the only guilty party in the slave trade, but a huge part of it, working slaves to death, raping them, forcing their conversion, torturing, and killing
-lynching, starving, segregating, and dehumanizing black people because the scripture proves some races are inferior
-the holocaust, and the entire anti-semitic history before it, on the idea that the Jews wouldn’t even worship their own Messiah, and they killed Jesus- check out the rantings of Martin Luther, precursor to Hitler
-no, Hitler was not atheist though he sure wasn’t a good Christian- and much of the Christian church supported his desire to cleanse the world of Jews, mentally retarded people, gypsies, and homos
-Rwanda
-Iraq
-burning thousands of women after defiling them sexually with instruments of torture because they were seen with Christian’s own eyes, copulating with devils, changing into animals, kidnapping babies, destroying crops
-very creative methods of torture for ‘heretics’ from very early in the faith through recent times- Dominionists still want this today! Puritans had umpteen capital ‘crimes’ and so on
-Serbia/Bosnia/Croatia
I could go on. and on.
Yes, I know these same horrible things are carried out by other faiths, on huge scales. Which in my mind shoes that religion corrupts. I also know that many wars are waged over greed for land or money. Most ‘politics’ though gets down to religion.
Again, I don’t wish to offend and apologize for any reactionary language. But the above is not meant to offend. It is history.
Demian FarnworthMay 18, 2009
Lorette, that list is hard to argue with. Your next task is to prove that the men who committed them were actually Christians and not just under the label of a state religion, king or deluded dictator…
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That’s the problem with lists like that. They assume too much. The same goes for Christians who trot out the horrors of atheists like Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao that overshadow anything “Christians” have accomplished…
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The common demnominator is not religion or lack of religin…it’s mankind.
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All we’re really doing is demonstrating that people are crooked, corrupt and bent on using whatever means [commerce, religion, politics] to get what they wants. Which goes back to the point of why we need a Savior in the first place.
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But bottom line, I’m with you…religion stinks. And that’s why the God of the Christian Bible is so adamantly against religion. That’s what OT prophets despised. It’s what Jesus fought against. Religion is nothing more than man’s attempts to manipulate God for his own advantage.
Demian,
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“That’s the problem with lists like that. They assume too much. The same goes for Christians who trot out the horrors of atheists like Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao that overshadow anything “Christians” have accomplished…”
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Thanks. Thank you for recognizing that lists of Pol Pot and Stalin’s atrocities do not really establish any conclusion about the morality of atheists, but that their main purpose is to distract from the conversation.
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I enjoy your blog – you do a much better job of trying to understand atheists and agnostics than many other religious bloggers. I appreciate what you’re doing, even though we obviously disagree on a lot of subjects.
Teleprompter: Thank you so much for that. Really, really appreciate it.
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The way I see it you and I could sit next to each other at school or work and get along fine. Even with our differences. No reason why we couldn’t do that online.
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Take care, and again, thank you for taking the time to write. Talk to you soon.
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May 13, 2009