Fallen and Flawed

Eshu makes a good point about Peter Singer’s character being quite admirable–and very charitable. You can especially see this in Singer’s latest book The Life You Can Save. This is something I should have pointed out in my original post on Singer. It’s just the conclusions to some of Singer’s beliefs that are appalling. Not the man himself.

Hi Eshu,

Thanks very much for sharing with us. It was interesting to hear you say, “I did believe Christ died for my sins.” Is this something that you still believe? If not, what do you think caused you to disbelieve it?

Toward the end you also wrote, “Maybe God will show up someday and make it all clear, but I’m not holding my breath.” We will certainly be praying that He will truly reveal His love, His grace and His revelation to you more fully. You are loved, brother.

Thanks again.

Thanks Demian. I think we both appreciate the opportunity to “meet” people with whom we have strong differences of opinion. Hopefully this will be enlightening.
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Hi Ryan,
To answer your question, no I do not still believe that Christ died for my sins. As an atheist I don’t believe in gods or deities in human likeness and I’m not sure the story would make much sense without a deified Christ.
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In answer to the second part of your question, my first doubts were due to the problem of the injustice of divine judgement, which I posted on last year. That was one of the first things which occurred to me as a young Christian and caused me to ask more questions. This lead me to question other aspects of my faith and it was certainly unsettling. However, I emerged the other side as a happier and (I think) nicer individual. I don’t particularly associate that improvement with becoming an atheist, rather with growing up and being honest with myself.
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We will certainly be praying that He will truly reveal His love, His grace and His revelation to you more fully.

Thanks, I appreciate the sentiment, but you wouldn’t be the first who has prayed for that. An Evangelical friend prayed for me after a long chat over a beer a while ago. I don’t mind people praying for me. Presumably you don’t mind people of other religions praying for you to see their light?
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I assure you that, if God shows up and reveals Himself to me, you’ll be the first to know. If He doesn’t (as is my experience to date), why would that be?

I like reading interviews with people who’s story is so similar to my own, probably because I never meet any in real life, that I know of anyway (or maybe it’s just that people don’t normally talk about it).

Agree about Alan Turing too, without him I would likely not have my current job and we would not be posting here

Thanks for your response Eshu. Btw, I’m a big fan of your line-break strategy on these comments
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On the issue of judgment, do you believe that there is an objective standard by which we can judge things on this earth? For example, is rape always wrong? Is oppression always wrong? If so, where do these inherent judgments come from? When it comes to the animal world, it certainly doesn’t seem like they have these built-in judgments (i.e. they slaughter each other and eat their young and don’t bat an eye over it). So would you argue that Right and Wrong are merely social constructs that humans have developed? Just trying to nail down your thinking here…
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On a similar note, what would an atheist say to a teenage girl who gets beaten, raped, and sold into slavery by a group of men – yet those men are never caught or punished by any authorities? If there is no ultimate judge (i.e. a god), then how is she to cope with that? (This same question could also be asked to the trillions of other people who have lived and died and faced similarly horrific experiences – Holocaust survivors would be one example.)
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I guess my point in all this is that it seems like we all live AS IF there is a God who judges… we try to work hard, treat people well, obey the law, be nice, etc. – yet if there really is no ultimate Judge sitting on the bench over all humanity, why do we even bother? Wouldn’t this all be a waste of time?
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Curious to hear your thoughts on the issue of judgment. And I have absolutely no problem with others praying for me to see their light
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Thanks again for sharing Eshu. As intense as these things can get, I really do pray that you’ll come to know that there is a mighty God who created the universe and who loves you infinitely and sent His Son to die for you that you (personally) might know Him and have eternal life. I know this sounds completely foolish and you don’t even believe it anymore, but the death, burial and resurrection of Christ is a pretty air-tight fact, even historically speaking, and if He really was the Son of God (as He claimed), there is nothing more important than what we say and believe about Him.
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I’ll get off the annoying evangelist soapbox now, but I really do appreciate your willingness to open up and share. I’m learning a ton, and please forgive me if I crossed the line with any of these comments. All the best, Eshu.

Good responses Eshu.

Demian, If you’re looking for more atheist bloggers, I might be interested. I may not be as articulate as Eshu, but I would love to have a chance to answer some of those questions. I am an ex-fundamentalist and my father is even a semi-known evangelist.

Ryan,

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You said,
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On a similar note, what would an atheist say to a teenage girl who gets beaten, raped, and sold into slavery by a group of men – yet those men are never caught or punished by any authorities? If there is no ultimate judge (i.e. a god), then how is she to cope with that? (This same question could also be asked to the trillions of other people who have lived and died and faced similarly horrific experiences – Holocaust survivors would be one example.)

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My question:
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How does having a universal avenger help the pain of a victim? According to the Bible, one is supposed to love one’s enemies, pray for them, forgive them, and IS NOT allowed to wish them evil. As a Christian, every time I was abused the pain was multiplied by the Bible and its followers throwing the Word at me. Let me give you a few of the verses I am referring to.
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Proverbs 24:17-18 –
17 Do not rejoice when your enemy falls,
and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles,
18 lest the Lord see it and be displeased, and turn away his anger from him.
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Mathew 5:44 –
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
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Romans 12:20 —
But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him. For if he is thirsty, give him a drink. If you do this, you will pile burning coals on his head.”
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Luke 6:27
But I say to you who are listening: Love your enemies. Do good to those who hate you.
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Mathew 6:15
But if you do not forgive people their offenses, your Father will not forgive your offenses
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The Bible, Ryan, offers no consolation to the hurting. And Christians take it a step further by not allowing the victim to even vent, for when a person complains of abuse, they are quick to spit out the cliches:
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“But you must forgive her.”
“Yes, he is evil, but God loves him and you should, too.”
“The Lord allowed it for a reason.”
“You must forgive her. If you don’t, The Lord won’t forgive your sins.”
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How is that consolation? You tell me. Isn’t it more comforting to know that the world is a dangerous place where bad things happen to good people for not other reason than being in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Thank you Lorena. I am sorry to hear of the abuse you suffered, and I am also sorry for those who threw the Bible or theology at you in a time of hurting. As Christians we are called to comfort, love and bear with each other in our burdens. Throwing Scripture at people in a time of pain is rarely (if ever) helpful, and I apologize if I have done the same within these comments.
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With that said, you are absolutely right that the Bible calls us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. And what better example of this than Jesus Christ on the cross, dying to love His enemies who sinned against Him, and then praying for the Father to “forgive them for they know not what they do” before breathing His final breath. We are called to emulate Christ, and this is exactly what He did (love His enemies and pray for them).
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Nevertheless, your question was: “How does having a universal avenger help the pain of a victim?” To be honest I am not sure that it helps with the pain in many cases. There will always be scars. There will always be hurt. There will always be shame. But the Lord offers healing and redemption for this pain, even though we may still live with the memory of it forever. So it’s important to remember that God is not only a Judge. He is loving, patient, kind, merciful, and gracious as well. Of course He is also wrathful, hates sin and calls us to be holy as He is holy. But “Judge” is not His only handle. If we see Him simply as that, then we do not truly see the loving God of the Bible, and we will never truly experience the immeasurable riches of His grace.
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My point in bringing this up is more to highlight the fact that atheism really only provides the answer which you later gave: “The world is a dangerous place where bad things happen to good people for no other reason than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.” This is a pretty hopeless message that ends up seeing life as a cosmic joke where we all just suffer, pay taxes, and then rot in a grave until our bodies decompose. So while a Christian can share with people the love of God and the offer of eternal salvation and hope through Jesus Christ – atheism can really just sit back and say, “Welp, that’s just how it goes.” And if you’ve ever been next to someone on their deathbed, that’s not the most comforting response… In fact it can be pretty horrific.
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Toward the end you also mentioned that “The Bible offers no consolation to the hurting.” In all honesty, I think that the exact opposite is true. The Bible offers the greatest consolation to the hurting that mankind has ever known. It shows us that God (the God of the universe!) is our refuge, our stronghold, our rock, our fortress, our deliver, our friend, our comforter, and our redeemer. And that even if we suffer temporarily on this earth, we can spend eternity(!) with Jesus Christ in glorified, resurrected bodies where all our tears will be wiped away and there will be no more pain. If the promise of a glorious eternal life without sorrow in the presence of the Triune God through which all things are created is not consolation enough, then I think we’re getting a little picky
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I think the biggest issue here is not so much that the God of the Bible is “bad”, but that us as Christians have done a poor job of showing the love of Christ to you and to others. We have been insensitive hypocrites who failed to be caring and gracious, particularly in your time of greatest need. For this I am deeply remorseful, and I know that I am the greatest of all the sinners and hypocrites on the planet. I would simply pray that you don’t let us fallen human beings write the script for your life. There is One who is never a hypocrite, who always loves, who is always tender, who is always holy, who is always gracious, and who always forgives us in our trespasses. His name is Jesus Christ, and He lived the perfect life, died the death we should have died, and offers us the most infinite reward in all of heaven and earth. Rather than merely look to us broken sinners for comfort, I pray that you might look to Him for your hope, for your joy, for your consolation, and for His steadfast love and unfathomable grace.
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Thank you again for sharing, and I look forward to talking again soon. Have a great night.
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Hi Ryan,
When the questions are as polite and well intentioned as yours, I’m happy to answer. Do you mind if I ask you to consider the question regarding prayer at the end of my last comment, please?
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I’m afraid I don’t have the time right now to give your questions the time they deserve, but will do so later today.
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cheers, Eshu

Sure thing Eshu. And thanks for your civility and kindness, even though we probably differ on quite a bit. As deep as these issues can cut, I really have no desire to win an argument or “prove” that God is true/real/etc. I can only share my experiences about my life and the world around us, and try to highlight the fact that Christ is the utmost treasure of my life. Of course I ultimately hope and pray that He will be for you as well, but that is not something that I am personally capable of causing to happen.
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On the issue of prayer, you were asking if I mind that people of other religions pray for me to see their light. The reason that I don’t mind whatsoever is going to sound prideful and close-minded, but I can only tell you what I believe… In essence, I do not mind for the simple reason that I believe there is only one God of the universe, and that if other people are praying to their gods, that those are actually not real and are therefore incapable of causing me to see their light. In other words, it would be like me praying to my bookshelf that you would convert to bookshelf-ism. Since that bookshelf is not God and has zero power to change your heart, you would have no reason to get upset, and like me, you would probably dismiss it as silly and harmless.
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Now, if a Muslim or a Hindu or a Buddhist or a Mormon were to ask me if they could pray for me on the spot, I would of course say yes, but I would also ask that I could pray for them through Jesus Christ. Why? Because I believe what the Bible says when it tells us that there is one mediator between God and men, and that that is the man Christ Jesus. If there is only one mediator, then all other entities being prayed through are merely false gods that we have created in our fallen nature. So in sum, I believe that the God of the Bible is the only true and living God, and that He alone (through the Holy Spirit) has the power to transforms hearts and minds. Naturally this leaves me to conclude that there are no other true gods, and so somebody praying for me to those false gods is (to put it bluntly) simply wasting their time. Sort of like the bookshelf example
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Hopefully that answers your question, and I’d be happy to clarify a little more if not. Thanks again Eshu.

@Ryan, Lorena, James and Robert…thanks for commenting. Also, I apologize for the paragraph break glitch. I’ll have to hunt down for a plugin…if anyone knows of one for WP, let me know. I’m all over it.
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Ryan, you said:

I think the biggest issue here is not so much that the God of the Bible is “bad”, but that us as Christians have done a poor job of showing the love of Christ to you and to others.

Well said. Christianity gets the toilet when it should be us who get it.
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You also said:

We have been insensitive hypocrites who failed to be caring and gracious, particularly in your time of greatest need. For this I am deeply remorseful, and I know that I am the greatest of all the sinners and hypocrites on the planet.

Lump me in as well. It breaks my heart when I fail to represent Christ properly. And I do it all the time. Just ask my wife.

Ryan,

Your question about victims coping with their tormentors going unpunished, (which you seem to be using as an argument for a supreme being/judge), strikes me as simple wish-fulfillment. Just because we would like life to be fair, doesn’t mean it’s going to be.

My father, who is somewhat more religious than I would prefer, used to tell me as a kid, “Wish in one hand and spit in the other. See which one fills up first.” I usually tell that anecdote as a joke about how tough I had it growing up, but the fact is, he was right. Unfortunately, like many people, he can’t seem to see the correlation in his religious life.

“Pray in one hand…”

Having had a couple of exchanges with Eshu both here and at his site, I can attest that he is intelligent, articulate, and in my opinion as honest with anyone as he is with himself (which is the best any of us can hope to be). Furthermore, I can only admire anyone who strives to improve his communication skills and make his life of benefit to his fellow humans.
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Having said that, I will try to reply to this remark of yours, Eshu: “…if God shows up and reveals Himself to me, you’ll be the first to know. If He doesn’t (as is my experience to date), why would that be?” In particular, I refer to your latter question.
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The NT book of Hebrews begins by stating, “Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son…” At the risk of seeming simplistic, the appearance, life, death, resurrection, and acsension of Jesus the Christ, along with the ensuing canonizing of the NT Scriptures, constituted the summary of all God had to tell humanity for the remainder of time. God no longer has anything to reveal to us that has not already been supplied. We may beg and plead for personal revelation or shake our fist defiantly at heaven, but if we neglect the Book God has provided for us we do so at our peril, for it is the embodiment of all that we may know of his Son, who is in turn “the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”
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That Book tells us that, “without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.” Additionally we are told that God will draw near to us in response to our drawing near to him.
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The point is that while God, as Creator/Possessor/Sustainer of all his creation, owes us nothing, he has still gone to great lengths to reveal himself to us for our ultimate benefit (not his, for he needs nothing). For us to now require of him yet further revelation is unnecessary and inappropriate. In having not believed in him, one has already chosen against him and can expect nothing more from him.
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This is not to say that God will not bless even the most determined atheist, but merely that he is not obliged to do so.
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I too pray for you my friend, and hope to meet you in God’s eternal kingdom if not before.

Right on Postman. Life is hardly fair at all.
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But having an ultimate Judge before whom we will all be held accountable does not imply that life ON EARTH will be fair. It simply argues that justice will ultimately prevail at the end of this life: after we die and prior to eternal life.
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Now obviously one must believe in an afterlife of some sort for any of this to even matter, but I simply wanted to clear up the fact that having a supreme Judge does not guarantee fairness in this life. It only guarantees that (eventually) we will all be held responsible for what we think, do, act and believe in this life. To me this is both deeply comforting and heart-wrenchingly scary. Scary because I am a messed-up sinner who has done untold wrongs to God and to others. Comforting because it means that even the most evil human beings will not go unpunished in the scope of eternity. They may escape this life, but they’ll have a much rougher time beyond this life…
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I realize this is a simplistic reasoning (and probably has some theological laziness to it), but I think it’s worth clarifying the distinction between earthly fairness and eternal fairness.
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Thanks for the great dialogue.

Al’s statement on the fact that credibility’s already been established reminds me of the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus in which Abraham ends with: ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’

and I am also sorry for those who threw the Bible or theology at you in a time of hurting.
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Why are you sorry? The well-meaning believers were just following what the Bible said. They really did nothing wrong. They were behaving as their “God” would want them to. The fact that the Bible says somewhere else about love and patience is just a BIBLICAL CONTRADICTION.
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I am not sorry I was abused. I’m OK. Once I understood that it can, and it does, happen to anybody, and that a “God” didn’t allow it, I felt much better.
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This is a pretty hopeless message that ends up seeing life as a cosmic joke where we all just suffer, pay taxes, and then rot in a grave until our bodies decompose.
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It isn’t hopeless to me. It is a reality. And a much better one that being forced to worship an imaginary God who is so egocentric that under threats of hell wants us to be on our knees telling Him how good He is, even when life sucks.
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It is better to know the reality that there is no life after death, when the alternative is to worship a God who witnesses murder, rape, and all sorts of injustices, and does NOTHING about it.
(Your answer here will be that humans are fallen and the doctrine of freewill. I know. I told people that when I was a Christian).
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With that said, you are absolutely right that the Bible calls us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. And what better example of this than Jesus Christ on the cross,
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Christians follow the Bible more than you give them credit for, Ryan. For instance, every time a tragedy happens, say a woman gets raped, someone is murdered, a good persons is conned, when the sin is discovered, the faithful’s reaction is to pour forgiveness toward the offender and to demand the victim to forgive. That is wrong at so many levels. I could write books about it, and I probably will some day.

Your answer here will most likely be that the victim must let herself be loved and healed by God and that The Lord will heal the wound. The problem with that approach is that the victim has to do lots of mental work. One has to have a very active imagination. The victim has to forgive the wrongdoer and at the same imagine that Jesus is healing. That is Brutal. It creates depression, guilt, and all kinds of mental mischief.

The Bible offers the greatest consolation to the hurting that mankind has ever known. It shows us that God (the God of the universe!) is our refuge, our stronghold, our rock, our fortress, our deliver, our friend, our comforter

Oh, I couldn’t agree more. And I am serious.
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The problem is that as the Bee Gees song goes, IT’S ONLY WORDS. The comfort is only there when one is able to imagine it is. The verses are wonderful, that’s why I read the entire Bible so many times. But there is a point when it becomes abundantly clear that no one is there and that our prayers never get answered. (You can also elicit wonderful feelings by imagining yourself in Hawaii, surrounded by pristine waters and palm trees. Try it. It works every time.)
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But there is also the contradictions, where the Bible says God loves you in one part of the Bible, and that you’ll never make it into the kingdom for this or that, or that if you even think the unpardonable sin, you are going to hell forever.
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The Bible is schizophrenic, and so its the God it portrays, and as such it reeks havoc with an honest follower’s mind.
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I think the biggest issue here is not so much that the God of the Bible is “bad”, but that us as Christians have done a poor job of showing the love of Christ to you and to others.
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I, on my blog, have been accusing Christians of all kinds of things for years. BUT I WAS WRONG.
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The kind, well-meaning fellows do their best to adhere to the unreasonable requirements of the Bible. If I admitted that Christians do a poor job of loving others, I would have to admit that so did I as a Christian.
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But I tried so hard. I prayed for hours-on-end for Jesus to help me be kind and understanding toward the hurting, but I failed many a time.
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I think the believers I came in contact with in the several churches I attended during my lengthy Christian life did as well as they could. It’s just that the Bible and the teachings are so contradictory that believers don’t know what to make of it all.
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There is One who is never a hypocrite, who always loves, who is always tender, who is always holy, who is always gracious, and who always forgives us in our trespasses.
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Really? And where was He when I needed Him? I heard a voice, yes. I thought it was His. But it turns out it was MINE. When I had enough and walked away from Christianity, I did because the voice told me to do so. And I still here it. It is just that it is kinder and more helpful now, and it is leading me towards a better life, one without guilt, and with real friends, and with hope for a future unburned by the weight of religion.

Thank you, Ryan, for clarifying. Perhaps I should have been a little clearer, myself.
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I was lumping the whole idea of any kind of life after death into the wishful thinking category. Which, by the way, has never struck me as particularly fair. Rather, very simplistic wishful thinking. According to every explanation of heaven/hell anyone’s ever given me, one can be good and deserving in this first, rehearsal, life but never be convinced of any kind of god – and thus condemned to eternal torture. On the other hand, John Wayne Gacy can get religion in jail – thus earning him a beachside condo in Paradise with 72 vergins, (or raisins, depending on who you ask).
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So, where’s the justice in that?

Postman, you said:

On the other hand, John Wayne Gacy can get religion in jail – thus earning him a beachside condo in Paradise with 72 vergins, (or raisins, depending on who you ask).

Forgive me, but where in the world did you get that? If you are even remotely talking about Islam, you’ll have to take it up with a Muslim. But if you’re suggesting that caricature is the historical, biblical view of God’s salvation, try again. You don’t get any points for creating a straw man that’s easily destabilized. If you’re serious about critiquing Christianity I recommend you learn what it actually teaches, then judge it. Don’t rely on what misquided people fed you or a cursory, shallow reading of the Bible.

Thank you Lorena. I realize now that none of this means anything if God is not real. Clearly in your heart and mind He is not. This saddens me greatly, though it certainly does not surprise me. I could spend a lot of time answering these objections, but if we’re coming at the Bible with the notion that it’s merely describing an imaginary being who hates everybody and couldn’t care less about injustice and evil, then we’ll simply be beating a dead horse. Like you mentioned about the Bee Gees, for you it is only words. More words from me will not change any of that. I will honestly be praying for you, even if you believe that there is no God. I believe He loves you. I believe He sent His Son to die for you and offer you forgiveness. And I believe He offers eternal life to all who receive His saving grace – not because He’s a crazy jerk who likes to threaten people with hell, but because He sincerely loves you with a love more infinite that you can even imagine.
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In response to your question about, “Where was He when I needed Him?”… I believe He was right there alongside you through it all, and I believe He still is in this very moment. “The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit” (Psalm 34:18). Just words, I know. But what if they aren’t just words…
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Thank you for sharing Lorena. You are dearly loved.

Postman, the Bible says that “no one is righteous; not even one.” It also says that we all deserve death because of our sin, and we can’t save ourselves through our own good deeds. So the guy who lives a decent life is still inherently sinful and he can’t provide his own salvation.
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I know that’s not the most comforting answer, but that’s what the Bible teaches. I find it interesting that every other religion in the world tells you that you need to achieve a bunch of things in order to get to heaven. Christianity is the only one that says that no one can achieve heaven on their own, and that we all must humble ourselves and accept the saving grace of God. Quite an irony, no?

Ryan,
Sorry I didn’t have the time to answer you earlier, things seem to have moved on. I’ve now got home from work, had my hair cut, made dinner, had a shower and watched Dr Who with my wife, so I’m free to answer you!
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Regarding prayer, as it happens the reason you give for not minding is the same as mine. In fact I was more interested in my last question – what it would mean if it didn’t work. Al gave one answer (which I may get to…) but I’d be interested in yours.
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Hmm, everyone is praying for me. Not only that, but they’re telling me that they’re praying for me. Why do they tell me?
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You asked an interesting question that I’d like to discuss.

On the issue of judgment, do you believe that there is an objective standard by which we can judge things on this earth? For example, is rape always wrong?….So would you argue that Right and Wrong are merely social constructs that humans have developed?…

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Yes, I think there’s an objective moral standard. And yes for the record I think rape is always wrong, unless some villain was going to blow up a city unless someone was raped, but that’s a pretty artificial scenario, I think.
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So your next question is probably, “OK, where does this objective moral standard come from, if not from God?”
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I would describe the objective moral standard as the ideal way to run a society so that the as many individuals as possible can live happily and peacefully with the most freedom and the minimum of suffering. This is an ideal which exists independent of our ability to realise or implement it.
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Similarly there’s an ideal way to sail a boat from A to B or to run a farm or impress the love of your life.
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We can try to work out what these ideals and try to implement them. We probably won’t always get it right (as my erratic sailing attests), but we can learn from our mistakes and improve. I think society is improving ethically, although more slowly than I’d like. Slavery, the inferiority of women or certain races once seemed acceptable and now are not (in most parts of the world). The standard didn’t change, humanity just worked out that their idea of it was wrong in certain ways.
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You might complain that this lets anyone make a claim that the standard is X and so moral guidance is in flux. Yes, that’s a good thing. I’m glad we don’t have the laws and morals of hundreds of years ago! Plus, we can discuss ethics in an open and forward thinking way and hopefully make progress.
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I contrast this with divine command ethics, where a priest, mullah, rabbi or other cleric waves a holy book and says, “Allah says X is right, therefore it is!”. End of discussion. Or it would be if it was actually Allah/God/Yahweh who had spoken. Actually it’s a “holy” man, waving an old book of dubious provenance and telling people if they disagree with him then they disagree with Allah (or God)! It’s not as if that really settles the debate, either. Religious people (even those of the same religion) don’t agree on ethical issues. So whatever the divine command was, it wasn’t clear enough. A deity who wished to be understood would speak at the level of His/Her audience.
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In practice, our day to day ethics come from the society we live in (law and social pressure) as well as our ethical instincts what most people would call common sense…
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On to a slightly different question of where our moral instincts come from…
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When it comes to the animal world, it certainly doesn’t seem like they have these built-in judgments (i.e. they slaughter each other and eat their young and don’t bat an eye over it).

Yes some do, some don’t. Ever tried to touch a grizzly bear cub? See how her mother reacts! (actually no, don’t try this at home).
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The crucial difference is whether they are social animals. The reason you can tame a dog is because they are social animals who lived in groups. All social creatures exhibit some form of altruistic behaviour. Think about bees or wasps. Many species of bee/wasp die when they sting you so giving their own lives for their sisters. They don’t do this because of divine command ethics. Beesus didn’t preach the sermon on the mount (of honeycomb) to them.
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Social mammals share food with other members of their group, they will also rally round and protect young, even those unrelated to them. Sure they do selfish things sometimes too, but it’s the altruism that is more interesting. Keeping track of who is who in a large group is a tricky business. Mammals who socialise in large groups tend to have larger brains and more complex social rules. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to call these rules a kind of basic ethics. With larger brains and larger social groups, it would make sense that our ethics as humans would be a magnitude more complex, and they are. I hope that goes some way to explaining where I think our moral instincts probably came from. There are probably huge books on this subject and I’m hardly qualified, I just enjoyed David Attenborough’s Life of Mammals!
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Anyway, take care. I’ll try to keep the next comment shorter! – Eshu

al,
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Many thanks for the compliments! Likewise the quality of comments here is far above average, which is something to be proud of.
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In response… The Bible also says this about prayer,
“If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.” –Matthew 21:22 (NIV)
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“I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” –Matthew 17:20 (NIV)
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“Ask and it will be given to you… For everyone who asks receives.” –Luke 11:9-10 (NIV)
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“Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.” –Matthew 18:19 (NIV)
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Now I get the impression you guys would have faith somewhat larger than a mustard seed, certainly between you, so according to the Bible, your prayers “will be done for you by my Father in heaven”. (although the mustard seed analogy is rather ambiguous so I expect you can find an excuse in there somewhere! )
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For us to now require of him yet further revelation is unnecessary and inappropriate.

So how much would it inconvenience a God who apparently really wants a relationship with us? A simple prerequisite for such a relationship is know that He exists. And yet many still do not know this. As I said earlier, A deity who wished to be understood would speak at the level of His/Her audience. He’d make sure that everyone was at least aware of Him.
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In having not believed in him, one has already chosen against him and can expect nothing more from him.

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Er no. That is not a choice. That is simply ignorance. Is ignorance a crime? Can anything be a crime if it is impossible to avoid? Literally, a person who has never heard of Jesus/God is not free to “choose” him. I think we’ve been over this before.
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Anyway, good night, take care. I hope I’ve given you something to think about.
- Eshu

Can you say, “Anthropomorphic?” I hope you can, because that’s what best describes the root problem of most of the discussion on this thread. It means, as most of you probably know, the assigning of human attributes and qualities to non-human entities. Fiction authors use it all the time to come up with human-thinking, human-acting dogs, ponies, trees, rocks, etc.
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This conversation has been about the existence or deconstruction of an anthropomorphic god; NOT the God of the Bible. The God whose Bible we have is not human, doesn’t think, behave or speak like a human, and cannot be described, analyzed, explained, or known in merely human terms. The attempt to do any of the latter is to assign limits to the Unlimited, boundaries to the Unbound, and to confine to humanity’s finite comprehension the Incomprehensible One.
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The Bible begins with the words, “In the beginning God,” establishing for us created beings the presuppositional existence of the One who made us for reasons and purposes of His own. When He made us in His image, it was not as clones or with any intention that we should be equal with Him. We have never been in a position to evaluate His decisions as being right or wrong according to some standards of our deriving. Only He is in the position of setting standards or assigning definitions of right or reason.
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Fundamental to understanding the Book of God is acceptance of the God of the Book. Mankind can’t simply dissect the Scriptures to devise an anatomical diagram or a spiritual schematic of God. That is not the Book’s purpose, nor is it our assignment from Him who made us. We may, however, content ourselves to cooperate with our Designer in seeking to learn from him his itinerary for our individual lives, which he will show us if we are willing to hear him without placing conditions upon (anthropomorphising) him. This is not a popular desire among us because it is a willing self-denial of control of one’s life; an admission, if you will, that I ain’t “all that & a bag of chips.”
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If I’ve lost you along the way, please see Demian’s post “Can God Die…” for clarification.
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While I was writing this, Eshu came back and asked,”…but they’re telling me that they’re praying for me. Why do they tell me?” to which I answer Why not? Would you rather we don’t?
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Eshu, you also said, “A deity who wished to be understood would speak at the level of His/Her audience,” to which I respond by asking you who sets the limits of reason for a diety? Fictional dieties function within the limits of their creators, who are men. But a genuine DIETY? Such a one would surely be free to communicate HOWever, WHENever, WHYever, and to WHOMever he/it chose, n’est-ce pas? So it is with the God of the Bible.

You are dearly loved.

Liar.

Can you say, “Anthropomorphic?”

Yes. Can you say, “God moves in mysterious ways”?
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If so we could’ve saved a lot of time. The Bible could’ve been a lot shorter. How about, “Believe in God and you’ll live in paradise forever, if not suffer for eternity. You puny humans cannot understand God. Suck it up.”
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The point is that God must know that His message will be misunderstood or go unheard by the vast majority of people on Earth. The implication of this is that He’s fine with that. Or maybe He’s not capable of communicating universally?
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You can make excuses about God being ineffable all you like but it’s worth noting that the excuses only surface when someone points out how illogical your concept of God is. The rest of the time Christians are happy to say what God is like and what He wants.
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Sounds to me like special pleading.

al,

Which verse in the bible explicitly states that there will be no further revelation? If that were really the case, don’t you think God would have been very explicit, so that no one would ever bother to seek to hear personally from Him? It would save a lot of anguish.

Secondly, it’s not that we set out to anthromorphise God, but in many instances in the bible, God behaves just like a human, or more accurately, is portrayed to behave just like a human. So don’t blame the readers, blame the book.

Like the times when God can change his mind, walk in the garden of Eden, etc etc. Even impregnate a virgin. Ok, maybe not a suitable example. Or maybe it is.

al,
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Which verse in the bible explicitly states that there will be no further revelation? If that were really the case, don’t you think God would have been very explicit, so that no one would ever bother to seek to hear personally from Him? It would save a lot of anguish.
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Secondly, it’s not that we set out to anthromorphise God, but in many instances in the bible, God behaves just like a human, or more accurately, is portrayed to behave just like a human. So don’t blame the readers, blame the book.
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Like the times when God can change his mind, walk in the garden of Eden, etc etc. Even impregnate a virgin. Ok, maybe not a suitable example. Or maybe it is.

al,
Sorry, I didn’t completely address your comments.
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but they’re telling me that they’re praying for me. Why do they tell me?” to which I answer Why not? Would you rather we don’t?

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No it’s fine I don’t mind. I just wonder why they feel the need to tell me. Repeatedly. Isn’t it God they’re praying to? But then He already knows what they’re going to ask. And He’s perfect and unchangeable…?
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Fictional dieties function within the limits of their creators, who are men. But a genuine DIETY? Such a one would surely be free to communicate HOWever, WHENever, WHYever, and to WHOMever he/it chose, n’est-ce pas? So it is with the God of the Bible.

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I’m sure you’ll agree that all those other fictional deities are illogical and ineffable too. Saying that a god “moves in mysterious ways” or is “beyond our understanding”, works for those deities too. In fact it’s a great way to try and make sense of a fictional deity whose attributes are inconsistent with reality. It’s the perfect “Get out of jail free” card, allowing literally any kind of theological nonsense to pass.

Wow, great discussion guys. I guess it all comes back to pride for us as humans. Are we willing to believe in a God whom we can’t know exhaustively? Are we willing to live with some mystery and admit that we won’t be able to figure everything out?
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If we come to Christianity and say, “I won’t believe until I get all the answers”, then we’ll never believe in Jesus Christ. Just so you know Eshu, Christians don’t have it all figured out. Every pastor I know still lives with plenty of mystery. The Trinity, the first sin in the garden, the tension between sovereignty and human will, the doctrine of perseverance (you will but you must), the living of your Christian life (is it you or the Holy Spirit?), and on and on… there are plenty of things that we simply accept both sides of, without dismissing everything. Certainly this is where faith comes in, but even moreso it’s where humility comes in. We are finite human beings who are pretty messed up in many ways, and if we try to fit God in a box, we will never get Him in.
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This is not a “get out of jail free” card. It is a testament to the fact that the Bible is divinely inspired and not solely written by men. If it were, they never would have left all these difficult paradoxes in. They would’ve said, “This is too hard – no one will buy this – let’s take it out.” Why would people write a book where everyone’s a sinner and you’re not supposed to sin and if you don’t repent you will go to hell? Why would humans do that? It’s inconceivable.
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So in essence, Yes – there are many paradoxes. There are some mysteries. But here’s the distinction: We can’t know God exhaustively, but we can know Him truly. We can know Him through the Bible, even though we will never fully get our arms around Him. After all, He is infinite. It takes humility to accept this, and it takes just a tiny ounce of pride to reject it completely. That’s why the root of all human sin begins with pride
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Thanks again guys.

Ryan
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I don’t think it’s a matter of pride. Some people buy on impulse, some people check the facts out carefully before they make a purchase. Perhaps we can say it’s just different strokes for different folks.
…
You seem to be saying here that we atheists are being proud by refusing to believe until we get all the answers whereas you christians are so humble in being willing to accept things at face value. Isn’t that being proud? Proud that you’re humble?
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As for why the bible was written like that, you must remember that it’s a collection of at least 66 books written over centuries of time by totally different authors. So it’s no wonder that it doesn’t make much sense at all on the whole.
..
And it’s a religious book, and religions sometimes make it a point to subjugate people under their wills. Ever watched those movies with a medicine man? He’s always the one that wields a lot of power and people are scared of him. So why would a medicine man want to make life so difficult for people around him? Why is religion full of paradoxes and so… difficult, as what you said? The reason seems pretty obvious.

I sometimes find it difficult to visit this blog in a manner that’s as timely as I’d like. And I was delighted to see such a lively debate raging here!
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First, I want to express my appreciation to Demain for opening up and holding this forum. Secondly, I appreciate Eshu’s openness and honesty. And quite frankly anyone who’s a fan of Doctor Who can’t be all bad.
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So I hope you’ll indulge an old man (I’m venturing a guess here, but I’m pretty sure I’m the only grandfather in this discussion) and allow me add a couple of thoughts so late in the discussion.
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While all that’s been said here are relevant and worthy points of discussion, there are a couple of things that I’d like to add.
While debating Scripture and whether God is ineffable or not has its place, the endeavor misses a vital point—this isn’t about “religion” it’s about “relationship.”
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It’s about the possibility of having a real and living relationship with a real and Living God. We’re told that “unless we become like little children” we will not enter this relationship. Now, this doesn’t mean we need to check our intellect, will and emotions at the door, (anyone who’s had children will know that these are always very much engaged) it simply means that we can know our Father loves us and has a plan and purpose for us by looking to Him with the simple openness and honesty a child has toward a parent. God is as close to you as your next heartbeat.
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We all complicate this simple relational reality with debates over this Bible verse or that one, this conflicting passage verses that one, this point of theology over that one. God says here I am, standing at the doorway of your heart. Open it and I’ll come in. Yes, it is that simple. So simple a child could do it.
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I’ll leave with this one additional thought. It’s a quote from Emmanuel Suhard, a French Catholic bishop who lived in the 40s; he said, “To be a witness does not consist of engaging in propaganda, nor even in stirring people up, but in being a living mystery. It means to live in such a way that one’s life would make no sense if God did not exist.”
I’m here to say that our lives can make sense because He does exist and we can know this truth ourselves by simply becoming like children and opening ourselves up to Him.

Temaskian,
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No, you do have to blame the reader for misusing, misreading, misunderstanding the Bible. You’d never send a pistol to prison for killing someone.
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I do agree, however, the Bible’s not always easy to understand. And some portions are troubling. But one thing Luther emphasized during the Reformation was that a person of average intelligence could sit down with the Bible and understand what’s clear: the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ among other things.
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Furthermore, one of the prevailing principles of the Reformation was to get the Bible in everyone’s hand. And Luther understood that this meant that people would struggle with it. But better THEY did that than someone force feed them, like the Catholic Church was doing.
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Thanks for the discussion and I appreciate your contributions.

Demian,
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You said:
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“Forgive me, but where in the world did you get that? If you are even remotely talking about Islam, you’ll have to take it up with a Muslim. But if you’re suggesting that caricature is the historical, biblical view of God’s salvation, try again. You don’t get any points for creating a straw man that’s easily destabilized. If you’re serious about critiquing Christianity I recommend you learn what it actually teaches, then judge it. Don’t rely on what misquided people fed you or a cursory, shallow reading of the Bible.”
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First of all, I got the idea of reward through belief and not work from what I was taught when I was a Christian, and from the Bible. A number of people here have quoted the relevant verses, so I won’t bother to do so again.
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Second, the 72-misspelled-virgins bit was a) light humor and b) a reference to religion in general. I know that each specific sect gets touchy about being lumped in with the others, but for atheists, one myth is very much like another.
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As for my straw man caricature, what part of “You go to heaven if you believe, you don’t if you don’t” do you disagree with? If you glance at the comment two below yours, you’ll see Ryan telling me that’s just the way it is and that it somehow makes your brand better.
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If the John Wayne Gacy reference is what made you slightly denfensive and just the tiniest bit belligerent, I apologize. It was an extreme example, but I felt it got my point across.

Postman, no, no, not defensive, and I apologize if I came across belligerent. Just shocked. You don’t see that as a smidgen of an overstatement of Ryan’s position?
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It still comes back to a misunderstanding of biblical justice, because no matter how morally repugnant it would be to all of us if Gacy did repent and abandon his life to Christ in an authentic, remorseful way…he’d be in paradise just like the thief on the cross whom Christ forgave at the 11th hour.
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Don’t miss this: Jesus described salvation from God’s wrath for our sins–no matter how heinous–as an authentic, remorseful, grief-stricken-sorrow for our sins. Not a flippant, get free card just anyone can redeem on their terms. There’s a big difference between what you suggested and the truth.

Hi Ryan,

It takes humility to accept this, and it takes just a tiny ounce of pride to reject it completely. That’s why the root of all human sin begins with pride

May I say that you have an amazingly polite way of insulting a guy! So I’d like to return the favour…
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One man’s pride is another man’s intellectual honesty!

Hi Richard,
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I appreciate Eshu’s openness and honesty. And quite frankly anyone who’s a fan of Doctor Who can’t be all bad.

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Hehe, thanks.
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It’s about the possibility of having a real and living relationship with a real and Living God.

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So how would we reach such a relationship? Would God show up and ask us if we’d like to enter such a relationship and communicate with us personally so we could get to know him better?
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From my observation and experience that is not how it works. No one as far as I know has ever become a Christian (or member of any other religion) from direct revelation alone. No, they were all aware of Christianity before the revelation. (Someone correct me here if you know otherwise).
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The communication is generally other people, the Bible or books about the religion. All decidedly human forms of communication. In fact they’re the same means by which other religions spread. People in South America didn’t spontaneously enter into a relationship with Jesus during the 5th century. That started happening only after the Conquistadors showed up. Similarly people didn’t convert to Islam in Papua New Guinea until they started trading with the Malay empire in the 16th century.
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So without the Bible, the Roman Empire, European colonialism, even people talking on blogs, no one would be entering that relationship with God. How would they have any idea what he might be saying without some cultural reference point?
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This is not God talking to people, it’s humans passing on ideas. It makes no odds if one of those ideas is about having a relationship with a god.

Hey Demian,
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This is keeping us both pretty busy, I guess!
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No, you do have to blame the reader for misusing, misreading, misunderstanding the Bible. You’d never send a pistol to prison for killing someone.

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In my opinion that is a poor analogy. Firstly, a pistol has no mind, that is why we don’t blame it. Secondly, communication is a two way process. Either party can fail to do it properly, as we sometimes see on the Internet…

Demian,
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Admittedly, comic overstatement is my stock-in-trade. However, I still think “You go to heaven if you believe. You don’t if you don’t,” is an accurate, if bald and simple, statement of the Christian position.
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So whether someone’s remorse is genuine or not seems immaterial to the obvious fact that it wouldn’t be particularly fair to reward them and punish someone who had no need for remorse.
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Of course, as may have occurred to you, I’m really only arguing to be polite, (Don’t hear that sentence very often, do you?), and possibly for the exercise. It’s been my experience that people generally don’t change each other’s minds about religion. If I ever have a goal in that area it’s simply to show those who are beginning down the difficult path of deconversion that it’s alright to find the idea of god(s) laughable.
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Thanks for the civilized discourse.

Postman, you said, “Admittedly, comic overstatement is my stock-in-trade.” I’m with you now. I like to think I’m smart, but I tend to slow, gullible and the last one in on the joke. I appreciate the polite discussion, too.
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I’m really only arguing to be polite, (Don’t hear that sentence very often, do you?), and possibly for the exercise.

No, don’t think I’ve heard that sentence ever. Likewise, I appreciate the exercise.
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It’s been my experience that people generally don’t change each other’s minds about religion.

Unbelievably true. So I’m that much more grateful for the fierce, but intellectual, civil discussion you’ve brought. Thanks for being part of this thread.
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@Eshu, you’re right, not the best analogy…but I have to say not for the reason you pointed out because just like a gun, the Bible doesn’t have a mind. Just like any book it needs to be interpreted. But you are right that comm. is a two-way street and either party can fail, which I think you’re saying includes the Bible…but that’s a stretch, cause while Christians declare the Bible the “word of God,” still, it’s a book, that doesn’t have a mind, will or emotions, and it would be wrong to point to the Bible and say “Bible equals God, God equals Bible.” If that’s not not where you were going, let me know. I don’t want to “misuse, misread or misunderstand” what you wrote.

Eshu,

You’re welcome. My family has been huge Doctor Who fans for quite a few years now.

“Would God show up and ask us if we’d like to enter such a relationship and communicate with us personally so we could get to know him better?”

He already did so. Christ not only physically showed up in human history to say these very things, but God’s Holy Spirit stands before you at this very moment. His invitation to you is real and present. The act of opening your heart to Him is one of the simplest we can undertake.
While I agree with your premise that truths about God are communicated, whether spoken or written, it still comes down to the hearer or reader deciding to open oneself to Him.
While humans can and do pass on the initial ideas, even ideas about having a relationship with God, these ideas still need to be internalized and experienced by the person hearing them. And then, yes, God can and does speak directly to us. And He can speak directly to you, too.

Yikes! This thread has become a fulltime job! I really haven’t the time, wisdom, or energy to address everything that’s been posted since my last entry (nor would any of you likely wish me to), so I’ll just add a couple or so comments:
+
Eshu, my words about you weren’t intended to be “kind,” but simply honest. Had I meant to compliment I would have used eloquent rather than articulate, and might have compared your dedication to that of Mother Teresa. But I’ll reserve such remarks until you are deceased, or at least much older. Other recent comments of yours will be addressed, I hope, as I continue…
+
Grandpa Richard, welcome to this discussion. I’m not sure whether to be flattered or distressed that you suppose me to be younger than yourself, so I’ll just bypass that analysis. Your comments, as well as Eshu’s replies, re: personal relationship with God highlight a (if not THE) key factor in genuine befief and faith in Jesus Christ. I’d like to emphasize an elemental understanding of God’s side of the relationship equation:
=
Jesus said that in the final judgement of men, many would claim to have believed deeply and to have done many wonderful works in His name, but that He would curse them and send them away from Himself, NOT because they are liars, not because they hadn’t performed all they laid claim to have done, but because “I,” He will tell them, “never knew you,”(Mt.7:21-23). This is not what the guy who grabs your lapel and tells you that you can know Jesus is talking about– this is not about your knowing (or thinking you know) God, but about HIS knowing you! That is what’s really important, and (attn: Eshu) God will know you as He chooses to do, not as you may desire, dare, or instruct Him to do.
+
Temaskian, John closed his report of the revelation God gave Him by stating that nothing is to be added to or taken away from it. Some may argue that these words apply only to the revelation and not to the rest of Scripture. But coupled with the opening of Hebrews’ declaring that God has spoken in these last days through His Son, and Paul’s repeated warning that the Gospel he preached was not to be altered, even by an angel from heaven (Gal.1:8,9), under threat of God’s curse, give ample evidence that the given Word of God is complete. My point in telling this, as has been well emphasized by others here, is NOT that God doesn’t reveal Himself to individuals in personal ways, but that in so doing He reveals Himself according to what He has already said in the Bible; that He is indeed the God of the Bible, and will not be found to be in any way otherwise.
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Demian said, “while Christians declare the Bible the ‘word of God,’ still, it’s a book, that doesn’t have a mind, will or emotions, and it would be wrong to point to the Bible and say ‘Bible equals God, God equals Bible.’” This is a vital point on which I’d like to elaborate: Christians’ reference to the Bible as God’s Word harks back to the concept of One’s being as good as His word. Written contracts/covenants became the norm because they recorded what had been sworn to, and God’s Book is the written record of all the promises (blessings AND curses) He has sworn to keep. But, as Demian infers, the words of the Book are ink on paper or, today, pixels on LCD screens or audio vibrations, or numerous other media, but incapable in and of themselves to think or decide or perform anything. How does that affect mankind?
+
God said through His prophet Isaiah, “So shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it,”(55:11; read vv.8-10 for context). Since our first father, Adam, sinned, the whole race of humanity has been cursed to be born physically, mentally, and emotionally, but to simultaneously remain spiritually dead. Jesus said that for any of us to see the kingdom of God/heaven, we must be born again from above. The Word of God, administered by His Holy Spirit, is the only means by which that second birth can occur. God does this WHEN, HOW, and for WHOM He chooses. In this way, the Word of God is alive and powerful, as it states of itself– not the ink-and-paper, but the very thoughts of God, expressed in the very words of God, delivered by the Spirit of the living God. This only, and NO human effort, brings life to dead sinners.
+
Lorena, you put up a powerful front, but the bitterness of your attack in your last post, “Liar,” gives you away…
+
Postman, you said, “It’s been my experience that people generally don’t change each other’s minds about religion.” Surely an astute and correct observation. Any Christian worth his (God’s) salt knows or is learning that it is neither our calling nor our commission to change anyone’s mind about anything. That is the domain of the Holy Spirit– the job has been permanently filled, and we have not even the hope of filling in during vacations because He takes none. Our job is simply to tell the Good News of Jesus Christ to sinners and saints (the redeemed of the Lord) alike, to pray, and to let God work. May He work on all of you as faithfully and effectively as He has and continues to on me.
And Eshu, I’ll still pr… oh, never mind

Sorry, friends, I guess I had more time and energy than I thought– I can only hope that wisdom fitted itself in there somewhere, too. G’night!

Richard,
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He already did so.

-sigh- Well that’s what an ancient book says. But a lot of ancient books say a lot of things. Whether you believe them or not, you would probably admit that a story about a supernatural chap giving us a message is a lot less effective than a supernatural chap actually giving each person a message, y’know, personally.
.

And He can speak directly to you, too.

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Is this where you ask for my credit card number?

al,
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That is what’s really important, and (attn: Eshu) God will know you as He chooses to do, not as you may desire, dare, or instruct Him to do… The Word of God, administered by His Holy Spirit, is the only means by which that second birth can occur. God does this WHEN, HOW, and for WHOM He chooses….This only, and NO human effort, brings life to dead sinners.

.
So evangelism is superfluous then?
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Perhaps you’re right. Perhaps I’ll just keep living my life in a secular, humanist, live and let live – make the best of the one life we have – kind of way. If God wants to administer His Holy Spirit, he’s welcome to do so. If what you say about Him is true then I’m sure He can do so in such a way that I’ll know it when I see it, but in the mean time there’s little point in me listening to what any human has to say about it.
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Lorena, you put up a powerful front, but the bitterness of your attack in your last post, “Liar,” gives you away…

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I think it’s understandable that Lorena says “Liar”. There may be some uncertainty over what was meant by people saying she “is loved”.
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If that means loved by the writer, well that’s a strange kind of love. You’ve (presumable) never met and she’s only made a handful of comments, so to love her based on that, even in a paternal or platonic sense, is unusual. I think it cheapens the love expressed for people who are genuinely close to someone. Having a basic respect for someone and assuming they’re a decent person worthy of kindness, fine. I can agree with that and even say I feel it for everyone commenting here. But love is something else. In any case, don’t Christians think all humans are worthless and depraved?
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On the other hand, maybe the writer was saying that God loves Lorena. In which case from her point of view, that is a lie (she doesn’t believe in God). Perhaps it’s more of an unwitting lie and “You are mistaken” would’ve been more polite. But then I haven’t received years of condescension, racism and disrespect from believers that Lorena has. So perhaps it’s easy for me to be polite about it.

Eshu, I confess you have surprised me. Perhaps you overlooked it, but I answered your question:
So evangelism is superfluous then?
in the same post, in my address to Postman:
Any Christian worth his (God’s) salt knows or is learning that it is neither our calling nor our commission to change anyone’s mind about anything. That is the domain of the Holy Spirit– the job has been permanently filled, and we have not even the hope of filling in during vacations because He takes none. Our job is simply to tell the Good News of Jesus Christ to sinners and saints (the redeemed of the Lord) alike, to pray, and to let God work. May He work on all of you as faithfully and effectively as He has and continues to on me.

You surprised me, I say, because I think you don’t miss much. But maybe I overestimated your understanding of Christ and Christianity. If so, I apologize.
o
Perhaps you’re right. Perhaps I’ll just keep living my life in a secular, humanist, live and let live – make the best of the one life we have – kind of way. If God wants to administer His Holy Spirit, he’s welcome to do so. If what you say about Him is true then I’m sure He can do so in such a way that I’ll know it when I see it, but in the mean time there’s little point in me listening to what any human has to say about it.

Of this I have no doubt: you will live as you choose, regardless of my desires for you, because God will allow you to pursue or neglect and deny Him as it pleases you. As the psalmist said to God, “You open your hand; you satisfy the desire of every living thing,”(145:16). If you so desire, God will surely allow you the rope with which you will hang yourself.
o
Elsewhere, you accurately stated:
No one as far as I know has ever become a Christian … from direct revelation alone. No, they were all aware of Christianity before the revelation. (Someone correct me here if you know otherwise).
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The communication is generally … decidedly human forms of communication.
…
So without the Bible, the Roman Empire, European colonialism, even people talking on blogs, no one would be entering that relationship with God. How would they have any idea what he might be saying without some cultural reference point?

This is perfectly correct because “it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe,”(1Cor.1:21). Why folly? “For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God,”(1:18). And why, again, is that? “For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men,”(1:25).
o
As for your various potential explanations regarding Lorena, while I appreciate your efforts, one has but to peruse her website to find that her experiences in christendom apparently came no closer than your own to touching the living Truth that is Jesus Christ. Your lives have been tainted by that which dares to call itself Christian but is not; what the Bible calls “having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power,”(2Tim.3:5).
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You both have obviously tried something– church, a belief system, the counsel of others, I don’t know what– but something that represents itself as Christ. But it was not Him, and you have discarded the baby with the bathwater. I mean no insult by saying this– it happens manifold times the world over every day, and I experienced it repeatedly. And yes, I too thought that God was the failure, until at last I found that the failure was me and my only salvation from myself was the true and living God.
=
What I say to you now I say humbly because it is only by God’s merciful and undeserved gift to me that I can say it at all, yet I say boldly because Jesus Christ has promised that [1] whoever comes to Him He will never cast out, and that [2] no one (not even ourselves) is able to pluck us from His hand, therefore:
There can be no such person as a former Christian– only those who think they were once Christians but never really were.

Sorry, Eshu– I thought I had mastered the barquote thing, but it didn’t work in the above post– hope you can figure it out…

Eshu,

I don’t take credit cards, cash only please.

But the offer isn’t mine and it still stands.

Al,

Sorry about the age assumption. We can compare AARP cards some other time.

And I believe we’re pretty much on the same page. What I was referring to was not that our relationship with God is one sided, and that all we need to do is assume He knows us, but my initial point was the simplicity involved in opening our hearts to Christ. Revelation 3:20 states, “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.”

The context for my statement was that this is really not about “religion” with all of its man-made rules, regulations and theological arguments, but it’s about “relationship,” a relationship built upon a simple, child-like openness to the One who is knocking.

Demian,

Thanks again for fostering such a lively exchange!

Thank you, ** Eshu **, for giving my side of the story with extreme accuracy.
~

I said “liar” and I am not sorry I said it. If I am bitter, so what? No one said that ex-Christians are perfect. Certainly, I don’t claim to be one. AND I DON’T WANT TO BE ONE.
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I left Christianity for hundreds of reasons. I am not going to blame one thing or the other specifically. But a stranger saying that he loves me summarizes many of my reasons, which Eshu did a good job of explaining.
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Again, I could write a book about why an “I love you” comment by a stranger is offensive to me, but I will try to summarize it in point form.
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1) First, I must clarify that I never did confuse it with anything that wasn’t fraternal love. So, let’s get that one out of the way.
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2) I don’t believe there can be love without relationship. In order to love someone, I must know them REALLY well. ANY stranger that says they “deeply care” for me out of the blue would be lying, or being a hypocrite, which is one my reasons for leaving the faith: I no longer wanted to be a hypocrite.
~

3)He said what he said out of “obedience” to Jesus. I know that, because as a Christian, I was commanded to love others whether I wanted or not. But love cannot be commanded. Love, to be genuine, has to be cultivated. Two comments on a blog hardly amount to friendship, let alone love. In short, I will not follow a religion that wants to COMMAND my feelings. If there were a God, surely He would be nice enough to let me feel whatever I wanted. He couldn’t possibly be that sort of tyrant.
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4) Ryan does not love me. He didn’t even hear me. He didn’t even address any of my points. All he did was dish out the memorized Christian clichés that he’s memorized in church. I know all those clichés because, for years, I also recited them to others. He never did say anything I hadn’t heard. He spoke down at me condescendingly as if he knew something I didn’t know. Generally speaking, he didn’t. For years, I heard and believed what he says and believes, and I rejected that after careful examination. I am NEVER going back. Let’s make that very clear.
~

5)Instead of answering my questions, he said he was going to stop “beating the dead horse” and move on. That was rude. Is he allowed to be rude and also love me? What a contradiction! Had he been in the room with me, I would have slapped him. That isn’t wrong according to my values. I don’t have a God controlling me, and if there were a God, he probably would be on my side.
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(6) Why does he feel the need to say that “He loves me?” Is he under the impression that I cry myself to sleep every night because no-one loves me? Does he think that I am some sort of orphan whom everyone hates? He couldn’t be more wrong. Not only have I the strong support of friends like Eshu and others, but I also have the love of my husband and other friends and relatives who KNOW ME and like me anyway.
~

I do not need to beg for love. I have enough. Had I not, I wouldn’t have been able to walk away from a tyrant God who Christians said would roast me in hell if I didn’t believe in Him.
~

In short, offering love to someone assuming they’re a beggar when they’re not is highly offensive.
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I am extremely offended. But as usual, you Christians go around insulting people and, what do you do? You blame the victim. How very Christian of you.
~

You want me to behave like the submissive women whom in church you keep as low as possible, but I am not one of them. I have a voice and I use it. If telling the true to a liar who insulted me is being bitter, so be it. I did not come here to sell a product or to try to convince anyone. I came to stand up for those of us who’ve rejected your faith and that’s what I did.
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Proudly,
~

Lorena

Demian,

I love this series!

I recently had the opportunity to post my Christianity-to-atheism story on Christian webzine The Jesus Manifesto, and the resulting dialogue between myself (an atheist) and the readers (Christians) was fascinating and productive – and I think you’ll get the same thing here, with this post series.

Cheers,

Luke

Good to hear, Luke, and I think you’re right…so far the discussion’s been fascinating and productive. Take care.

al,
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So evangelism is superfluous then?
in the same post, in my address to Postman:…. Our job is simply to tell the Good News of Jesus Christ to sinners and saints

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I beg your pardon, so you did. Now to me it seems strange that you even need to do that.
.

If you so desire, God will surely allow you the rope with which you will hang yourself.

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As has been said before, most Christians are nicer than the God they worship.
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Thanks al, this has been illuminating for me. I hope you feel the same.
- Eshu

Demian,
~
The bible is not difficult to understand — once you understand that the bible is just a compilation of the writings of men centuries and centuries ago, in a culture that is so backward compared to ours, and edited many times through the centuries. Some of them were written by pretty deluded individuals, some by people that are… I think you get the point.
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It is only difficult to understand if you force yourself to read it while thinking that it is the words of God, that it is God’s message to all mankind.

Temaskin said:

culture that is so backward compared to ours, and edited many times through the centuries. Some of them were written by pretty deluded individuals

You made three pretty bold statements there, Temaskian. Care to expand on at least the first one on how you know this to be true?

Demian,
~
1. The way they worshipped God. They used to sacrifice animals. Kill ‘em, smoke ‘em. Nowadays, when we worship God, what do we think of? Singing. We still sing of words like ‘blood’ and the ‘lamb that was slain’, but we don’t burn bloody sacrifices anymore. I presume that’s true for most, if not all churches. Even if religions continue to do so, they no longer do it so often, and they have other ways of worshipping God that are not so wasteful of food.
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2. I recommend reading Bart Ehrman’s books.
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3. The book of Revelation reads like it was written by someone high on drugs or something. And it’s not the only one.