Fallen and Flawed

Hey Robert, I admire your passion for critical thinking. I’m with you on that. I was wondering: Do you think belief in God and critical thinking are mutually exclusive?

Thank you for sharing, Robert. You’ve clearly put a lot of thought into these things. On being a Fundamentalist, what was life like during that period? Did you have a heartfelt love for Jesus, or was it more like trying to live up to a bunch of ridiculous biblical standards? (i.e. your example of the thought crimes)
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The only reason I ask is that it sounds like there are many folks who would consider themselves “fundamentalist” at one point, but then reject Christianity later in life. Just curious where your heart (not just your mind) was at during that period.
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Thanks again.

Do you think belief in God and critical thinking are mutually exclusive?

Not at all. People are not machines. We choose the subjects that we think critically about. My Grandfather was a critical thinker about everything except his religion. He just chose not to examine his religion with the same tools he used when examining every other thing.

As a matter of fact, I find that many fundamentalists are excellent skeptics when it comes to occult beliefs such as spiritualism, but fail to think critically about creationism or glosslalia among other things.

In other words, just because someone doesn’t think critically about A, doesn’t mean that he/she doesn’t think critically about B.

many fundamentalists are excellent skeptics when it comes to occult beliefs such as spiritualism, but fail to think critically about creationism or glosslalia among other things.

Well said…and I don’t think I ever heard any body refer to tongues as “glosslalia” in a conversation, which is, of course, the technical term for it.

Did you have a heartfelt love for Jesus, or was it more like trying to live up to a bunch of ridiculous biblical standards?

I believed what my parents told me. I did have a keen interest in and love for Jesus and The Bible through out my teens and twenties.
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I think you’re doing in the direction of claiming that I wasn’t a true christian. I’ve heard that more times than I can count. So, here’s exactly what I think.
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I wasn’t saved. I thought I was, but the reality is that there is no God out there to save me (assuming we need saving). Also, I don’t think anyone else is actually saved for the same reason.

Hey Robert, another question I wanted to ask: Other than reason, what methods to finding truth do you approve of? And how would you rank them in importance, including reason? Thanks.

Thanks for your honesty and openness Robert. I apologize if that felt like a “hidden agenda” question, as it seems like you’ve been put through the ringer more than enough already.
In all sincerity, I was curious about where your heart was because I went through a very similar path in my own life. I went to church, played by the rules, sang the songs, obeyed my parents, learned parts of the Bible, and did all the traditional “churchy” stuff for about 18 years. Then I went to college and the house of cards came tumbling down. I rebelled, disobeyed, got myself into tons of trouble and basically threw away everything I had ever learned during my time in Christian circles.
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Looking back it’s clear that I also wasn’t saved. I thought that Christianity basically boiled down to: “Obey these guidelines and Jesus will love you.” It wasn’t until several years later (after 23 years of being sorely mistaken) that I realized this really isn’t what the Bible teaches. In reality, our obedience flows out of a heartfelt love – not in order to create love. I wish I had known that before things completely fell apart, but such is life
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Anywho, thanks again for sharing with us.

Hi Robert, I just wanted to say thanks for sharing your thoughts. It is exciting for me to see forums like this where differences are discussed and not “punished” as you experienced in your childhood. I grew up in a very similar background were questions were repressed as opposed to being welcomed. As with you, that began my search. in many ways, though I am now confident in what I believe, my search still continues. I desire to know more about what drives one’s beliefs and opinion of truth. The reason for this is two fold. I want to be understanding of differing opinions and I want to solidify the “whys” behind what I believe as well…so thanks!
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Demian… i haven’t posted much lately but i’ve still been reading… thanks for all your thoughts!
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Robert, what an excellent response, especially regarding critical thinking.

re: glosslalia – Demian, perhaps no one has any confidence in pronouncing it! I have no idea how it’s meant to be said. Maybe that’s the joke?

Eshu…then there’s xenoglossy…which Agnes Ozman claimed to have when suddenly she could write and speak fluent Chinese.
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Hey Robert, I think you might have overlooked my previous question: “Other than reason, what methods to finding truth do you approve of? And how would you rank them in importance, including reason?” Thanks, Robert.

Really great post and dialogue. I learned a lot from Robert.

Robert, you said,

“The original purpose of my blog was to investigate the superstitious aspects of religion. I’m not sure that I have stuck to that purpose. I’d like to get back to that goal.”

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Why? What have you learned of it so far? What more do you hope to learn?
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Demian said,

“I don’t think I ever heard any body refer to tongues as “glosslalia” in a conversation”

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The word is spelled glossolalia, and it is rarely used in pentecostal circles, but is frequently heard among the “charismatic” mainline churches where it is practiced and sophistication is considered more important.
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Eshu said,

“perhaps no one has any confidence in pronouncing it! I have no idea how it’s meant to be said. Maybe that’s the joke?:

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Hilarious! I love it! I have heard it pronounced usually as GLOSS-oh-LAH-lee-ah among charismatics, and as GLOSS-oh-LAY-lee-ah by the few pentecostals who don’t just call it tongues.
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Robert, thanks for your openness in sharing your experience. Do you mind telling whether, how, and how much your relationship with your Christian family members is stressful or strained?

Demian,
Sorry about that.
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Other than reason, what methods to finding truth do you approve of? And how would you rank them in importance, including reason?

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Reason is the process of working it out in your head. Of, course there are physical methods. Science. Often, extraordinary claims are made. Sometimes, these claim are actually testable.
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As far as faith, I don’t practice that anymore. Faith, in my opinion, is superstition. It’s like crossing imaginary fingers. Believe hard enough and you’ll get your wish. I know that’s probably not what you wanted to hear, but that the way I see it.
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Al asked,

What have you learned of it so far? What more do you hope to learn?

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first, I have learned that the moral values that I was taught are not exclusive to Christianity or even religion.
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Second, I realize that the biggest superstition that fundamentalists have is the belief that The Bible is inerrant. That’s the single most extraordinary claim fundamentalists make and it’s testable with a little reason. I urge every christian to read The Bible from front to back. Leave nothing out, and think about what each chapter says. I did and it was the hardest thing I ever did (other than quitting tobacco).
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As for what I hope to learn? I don’t know. Let’s see what life throws at me.
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Do you mind telling whether, how, and how much your relationship with your Christian family members is stressful or strained?

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No. My Father and Mother and younger brother are ministers. My youngest brother is probably agnostic, but hasn’t really thought alot about it. I think my Father is in denial. Anymore, he avoids religious topics. Probably a good idea. I actually get along with him quite well. I also get along just fine with my brothers.
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Emily, Eshu, Kate,
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Thanks guys.

Oh Al!

I misspelled that horrendous word! Thanks for pointing that out. My Bad!

Oh yeah!
My dad’s sermons are avaible to download for free. You guys might like them.
Kenneth Madewell

Robert, thanks again, this time for answering my questions and clarifying your link between religion & superstition.
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I’m glad to learn that your family relationships are pleasant. Lorena may doubt my sincerity in saying that, but it’s true. Having personally experienced a good deal of unpleasantness in my interactions with my parents– my father in particular– I empathize with others who suffer similar woes. [I don't attribute this solely to my Christian faith, as I have always been an empathetic person. But I evaluate my empathy differently now than I did in my pre-Christian days.]
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Thanks for the link to your dad’s material. You look like him.

Having lived in Arkansas for many years and actually graduating from a Baptist college in the state, I can attest to the fact it borders on bravery to announce yourself as a non-Christian.

Having lived in Arkansas for many years and actually graduating from a Baptist college in the state, I can attest to the fact it borders on bravery to announce yourself as a non-Christian.

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or Stupidity. I haven’t figured out which one I am yet.
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In defense of Arkansans, I have found many more tolerant Arkansans than intolerant. However, it’s the intolerant ones make the most noise.

Robert,
You’re right. I didn’t mean to impugn my fellow Arkies. Some of the best folks in the world hail from Arkansas. I was more referring to its Bible-belt characteristics.

Robert, thanks for the links to your dad’s sermons!
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And I’m with you that faith is not a test for truth…but I was looking for other things, like experience, forensics, tradition, even intuition and feelings.
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My point is that we come to know many things about our world and it’s history using other means than reason and critical thinking. Like who was Plato. Or that my children love me.
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Reason is high on my list. Feelings low. [I think first, feel later. If at all. ] And naturally, as a Christian, the Bible is the highest. And as you pointed out, that’s not easy to digest if you know what’s in the book.
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So, to get back to my original point, how do you value other forms of truth testing?
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Dig the Arkansas banter, by the way.

Hey good questions and good answers. Though I would’ve said the favourite part of being an atheist is the smug superiority that I’ve attained.

Wait, I thought it was only fundamentalist Christians who could feel smug in the superiority they’ve attained?

Perhaps Robert’s blog is better titled “Supernatural Free”, as there seems to be no room for the unknown or unknowable.

God never meant for us to understand or relate to Him using our mind (logic and reason). He requires we use faith (our heart). Spiritual matters are spiritually discerned. Trying to understand Christianity using logic is like trying to see in the dark with a hammer. It is foolishness to men by design.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV)

PO,
Isn’t that just the greatest defense you could think up for getting a free pass? Just believe this stuff I’m telling you, and don’t examine it rationally, because you just have to feel it in your heart.

Funny how Muslims probably preach the same thing. Do you think they might be right?

Quoting the bible text that says “Hey, look over there!” doesn’t prove anything, you know. Except maybe that the writers knew their stories wouldn’t pass muster.

Anne,
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There is no “free pass”– Jesus paid with His life for any and all benefits we may receive regarding eternal life. Although we receive that life as a gift from God, the cost of it was enormous beyond calculation.
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Nowhere does the Bible teach either irrational acceptance nor the necessity to “feel it in your heart.” I don’t deny that you may have heard such things, but those teachings are the fabrications of people ignorant of the holy Scriptures. They are both untrue and nonsense.
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Muslim teachings are extremely different from the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but what you seem to think either or both theologies “probably” might consist of is purely unfounded theory.
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Neither Jesus Christ, the writers of Scripture, nor His disciples throughout history have had any need to, nor interest in “proving anything” or “passing muster” before anyone’s scrutiny. We will be judged by God for our thoughts, words and actions, and will answer to Him for every one of them. The only One who can convince an unbeliever of anything true regarding God, Christ, eternity, or even themselves is the Holy Spirit.
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The assignment for believers in Christ is to tell to all the good news of salvation from slavery to self, sin and death. The Holy Spirit empowers God’s words to penetrate the deaf ears and open the blind eyes of those who are dead in their sins, and to breathe life into those who will receive it. None of us earns any points or ribbons for merely doing our parts– that which we really couldn’t not do if we tried.
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Do we care what happens to your soul? Yes we do, because of God’s mercy shown to us. Can we do anything about it? Only tell you the truth about God and His Christ, and pray for you.
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Meanwhile, I wish you well and hope to meet you in heaven if not before.
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al

One person dying for everyone else’s “sins” 1) IS a free pass for everyone else and 2) is NOT “enormous beyond belief”. Any caring parent would die for his or her children, for example. A loving spouse would gladly lay down his or her life to save his/her mate. How is Jesus’ sacrifice particularly special? Consider Prometheus’ sacrifice. Now there was true suffering for mankind.

Not to mention that god supposedly created us sinful in the first place. Now, logically, how can this god be angry that we have the nature he gave us? Why should he need to incarnate himself on earth and then make a blood sacrifice to himself in order to forgive us? Or if you believe in some variation of this story, please clarify. I’ve never heard any explanation of the story that makes any sense. If Jesus was supposed to be merely a teacher and example, frankly, he was a piss-poor one. The Buddha is a much better spiritual teacher if you are looking for one, and the teachings of Confucius are a better source of morality than the bible.

re: feeling vs. logic, you may quibble about my choice of words but you must admit that that is exactly what you claim; that you must give feelings priority over reason.

Islam also teaches that you have to take things on faith. That was my point. As to specifics, I’m aware there are differences in the two religions. Where both agree is on the premise that you must believe the doctrine regardless of your ability to perceive that reality does not coincide with the official teachings.

I could no more believe in the Christian mythology than you could believe the Greek myths. Christian teachings are so morally bankrupt, internally inconsistent, and frankly, plain stupid that only someone who was brainwsashed from an early age could accept them as “true”. At least pagan myths are creative and amusing.

Ach. There is NO heaven and NO hell. This is your one chance at life and you should be grateful that you have it instead of imagining that you are so important that you will live “eternally”. I only bother to tell you because I care about “you” in the abstract sense. No one should waste the one life they have in yearning for an imaginary second life.

Just consider for a moment the possibility that everything you’ve been taught about the afterlife is wrong. And that Christianity is indeed another set of myths. Don’t you owe it to yourself to find out the truth? This means real research, not simply reading more of the same apologetics. If Christianity is true, shouldn’t it hold up to scrutiny and investigation?

I wish you well, too, and hope that you have the courage to analyze your religion. Read the bible thoroughly, study religions in general, and study the origins of your own religion. Life is short, friend.

Sorry about the formatting. I can’t seem to make paragraph breaks for some reason.

Anne, for some as yet undetermined reason this blog doesn’t do paragraphs. What most of us do when we want to end a para is drop down a line, insert a hyphen or some other symbol or figure (as I did in my previous post), drop down another line & start a new para.
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You seem adamant about your thoughts and I have no need or desire to debate you or to convince you of anything. For the record, I was brought up in a home where God’s name was only exclaimed for emphasis and faith was unknown. I spent my first two decades as a thoroughly self-indulgent hedonist, my second 20 years as a very involved and active nominal Christian [i.e. I did all the "right" things, but without any real effectual relationship with Jesus Christ], my third two decades as an agnostic/skeptic/humanist, and only the past five or six years with any real understanding of Christ, God, grace, the Bible, and faith.
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Your idea that God created humanity sinful (or to be sinful) is not the teaching of the Bible. The Bible does teach that God’s existence in manifestly knowable to every human, but that we choose to suppress that knowledge of Him because of (and by) our unrighteousness, which is a result of mankind’s choice to rebel against our maker (known to Christians as “the fall”).
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I care about you in a very specific way, but I am appreciative of your “abstract” concern for me and I thank you for it.

Anne said:
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“Isn’t that just the greatest defense you could think up for getting a free pass? Just believe this stuff I’m telling you, and don’t examine it rationally, because you just have to feel it in your heart.”
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No Anne, I didn’t think it up. It is in the Bible perhaps you’ve heard of it? Some things defy rational explanation, trying to force all your life experiences through the round hole of science just doesn’t cut it. You don’t need to be a Christian to recognize the existence of the supernatural or paranormal. Your ’scientific’ answer is to declare people that have had profound experiences as insane.
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Anne said:
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“Funny how Muslims probably preach the same thing. Do you think they might be right?”
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Right about what? God’s existence? Lopping off the heads of people that don’t believe the same way? They are right about some things, wrong about others. Invoking the Muslim faith? As typical for your ilk you are trying to promote an emotional response instead of a reasonable one.
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Anne said:
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“Quoting the bible text that says “Hey, look over there!” doesn’t prove anything, you know. Except maybe that the writers knew their stories wouldn’t pass muster.”
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You’re right, it doesn’t. Actually looking over there and finding just what the Bible said would be there does. But what you do is state: “There’s nothing there I’m not going to look.” which doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

Al,

Christians claim a god created us and gave us our nature. Now how could that god possibly be surprised or disappointed at how we turned out?

Christianity’s premise is that we are sinful and that we need redemption through Christ (again, perhaps your sect has some variation on this premise, so apologies if I am overgeneralizing). However, if a god created humans, then any flaw in the creation is that GOD’s DOING. Thus, that god is either flawed himself, or he had some perverted reason for created a flawed humanity that he knew would continually violate his laws. Gosh, it makes my head hurt to try to imagine this scenario.

But if you don’t like to debate, then I guess I’m wasting my time. I do have strong opinions – but then, so do you. I find it interesting to argue religion.

Take care.

PO, I’ve read the bible, thanks very much. I find nothing coherent and compelling there. What I mean by “look over there” is that the writers of the bible practice deception and obfuscation whenever direct unanswerable questions are asked. When things don’t make sense logically they ask you to suspend your rational thought about those things.

As to paranormal experiences, the amazing Randi has (or used to have) a million dollar prize for anyone who could present evidence of anything genuinely supernatural or paranormal. No one was ever able to do it in years of attempts. Every paranormal experience is better explained by natural means. A very good book on this subject is “Why People Believe Weird Things.” Another is Susan Blackmore’s book, “In Search of the Light; Adventures of a Parapsychologist.”

I became an atheist when I started studying my religion with the intention of becoming a minister. It’s not because I haven’t looked at religion that I’m an atheist. It’s that I looked all too thoroughly.

Crumb, I forgot to format again. Sorry.

Anne said:

“PO, I’ve read the bible, thanks very much. I find nothing coherent and compelling there. What I mean by “look over there” is that the writers of the bible practice deception and obfuscation whenever direct unanswerable questions are asked. When things don’t make sense logically they ask you to suspend your rational thought about those things.”

Just because you find nothing compelling in the Bible for yourself doesn’t indicate nothing is there. As I have repeated many times, the Bible is spiritually discerned. As wise as Atheists claim to be, they cannot grasp that simple fact. The Bible makes no mystery of this fact, it tells you this plainly.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Christianity should not be judged based on your total inability to think outside the box. Many like myself have had supernatural experiences, that should be enough evidence for you.

Anne said:

“As to paranormal experiences, the amazing Randi has (or used to have) a million dollar prize for anyone who could present evidence of anything genuinely supernatural or paranormal. No one was ever able to do it in years of attempts. Every paranormal experience is better explained by natural means. A very good book on this subject is “Why People Believe Weird Things.” Another is Susan Blackmore’s book, “In Search of the Light; Adventures of a Parapsychologist.”

Spiritual truths are revealed only to those seeking them. I always find it thoroughly amusing that people write books and go to such lengths to try to explain to the other people in the dark that the people who they see light are lying or delusional. If Amazing Randi or anyone else wanted to see all they had to do was exercise faith.

Anne said:

“I became an atheist when I started studying my religion with the intention of becoming a minister. It’s not because I haven’t looked at religion that I’m an atheist. It’s that I looked all too thoroughly.”

Sadly, you looked with your eyes. Spiritual matters are spiritually discerned. Spiritual enlightenment is a process that takes a lot of work. We only get glimpses and only the Holy Spirit can illuminate the spiritual truth that we do see.

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Spiritual truths are revealed only to those seeking them.

PO, you don’t think that I have actively sought for truth? Man, did I ever pray.

Robert said:
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“PO, you don’t think that I have actively sought for truth? Man, did I ever pray.”
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Robert, I have no preconceptions about what you have or have not done. I can only share my experience with you. God reveals Himself to us on His own terms, not ours. He requires faith, it is not an option. You want to relate to God because of the evidence and He wants you to do it as an act of faith. I prayed for 20 years for God to prove Himself to me, so I could believe. It doesn’t work. He requires we believe first, then He slowly reveals Himself.
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Faith is the fundamental part of the experience, the key. To me, it is like the story of Jesus telling Peter to get out of the boat and walk on water, and instead of doing it, Peter goes on the internet and researches if walking on water is possible.
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Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Robert, I just wanted to add that as long as you keep pursuing the truth, no matter where it leads, I am confident that you will end up at Christ’s feet.

You have a good mind, common sense and critical reasoning abilities. These are all good things, not evil. You just need to recognize that some things are beyond our limited human understanding, such as God and spiritual truth.

I’m going to watch the TV news like a hawk the next few days as I wait for the report (with video) that YOU have walked on water. Hey, like you said, all it takes is faith and you’ll be skimming over the waves.

RT said:
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“I’m going to watch the TV news like a hawk the next few days as I wait for the report (with video) that YOU have walked on water. Hey, like you said, all it takes is faith and you’ll be skimming over the waves.”
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The purpose of Peter walking on the water was to stretch his faith, not for demonstration purposes. But as soon as Jesus asks me to I will be out there on the water.

You just need to recognize that some things are beyond our limited human understanding, such as God and spiritual truth.

 
That’s just too convenient. In other words, I should stop trying to understand, because I’ll never understand. Just accept it without actually knowing. I’m sorry, I need the evidence.

Robert said:
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“That’s just too convenient. In other words, I should stop trying to understand, because I’ll never understand. Just accept it without actually knowing. I’m sorry, I need the evidence.”
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It isn’t a matter of not trying to understand, but of recognizing that there is an x factor, a realm that cannot be scientifically explained. Once you’ve recognized the existence of the x factor then you start figuring out possible explainations. For example, how do you explain those that ‘hear voices’? Or those that appear to channel totally separate entities? How do you explain haunted houses? Isn’t it intellectually lazy to simply label them as frauds or insane?