Fallen and Flawed

Charles Templeton? Ken Daniels? John Loftus? People who devoted much of their lives and who committed themselves entirely to their beliefs…are all false converts?

I really have trouble accepting your argument. Of course, I’m sure you probably expect that by now, but I definitely don’t see how people who did everything they could to promote Christianity and substantiate their faith could be false converts.

On the other hand, I also expect you to argue that it’s not proper for humans to try and “substantiate” their faith. I think I understand that argument, but I still disagree.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons. 1 Timothy 4:1

Demian, does this mean you think academic study (the route away from Christianity for many) is demonic?

btw, nice to see some blog post since your break.

Hey Teleprompter, your line:

“I definitely don’t see how people who did everything they could to promote Christianity and substantiate their faith could be false converts”

makes we want to ask you “how much would a person have to do to qualify as a true Christian who’s deconversion you would accept as real?” The question behind the question is how much good stuff do you have to do to be a Christian? And the good news is the answer is none. The reciprocal is that all the good stuff doesn’t make you a Christian either.

I can’t give the impressive resume of John Loftus before he “deconverted” but I lived the Christian life for a long time before I came to faith. That’s how people can appear to be what they’re not. Conversion is a spiritual change that has physical/behavioral manifestations. You can also have the behavior without the spiritual change. However, it’s the spiritual change that “counts”. You really never have complete certainty about anyone but yourself. We might come here one day to find Demian himself had never been a Christian!

Jesus gives the example of the Pharisees who led the strictest moral & religious life but didn’t love God. They were like white washed tombs with every appearance of righteousness but in reality full of dead bones.

As for your last line I think James tells us we should substantiate our faith with good works. I look forward to what others have to say.

Hi Teleprompter,

Is it possible for someone to devote much of their life and commit themselves to atheistic thinking, dialogue, and debate, and yet have`some doubts about atheism?

Is it possible to outwardly express strong atheistic thinking, yet to inwardly have doubts, and then in time to have those doubts increase enough to reject atheism?

Perhaps something similar happened to Charles Templeton, Ken Daniels, and John Loftus. Perhaps their “Christianity” was rifled with doubts, and in the end, their doubts were just too strong.

Blessings.

-Steve

I agree that perseverence is one of the marks of a real believer. I think many may appear to be believers, may think themselves believers, but are not. Some hang on to studying and talking about doctrine and proof for God to try and believe in it themselves.

To connect to God, to understand his ongoing grace, not in terms of only forgiveness, but His ongoing grace in the things He does each day in our lives; this is a huge part of being a believer. To love Jesus and love people is huge.

Some people are from families that do not connect. They are so broken in the ability to connect, they hang on to theology, to church culture, to whatever….but they are not hanging on to Jesus. They are not connecting with His people.

Authentic faith is about the connection we have to God being so deep that what comes our way will not shake it for long. Mary believed and had Jesus, Joseph believed and became an earthly father to a heavenly Son, Abraham believed and kept his son, etc….. God has asked some pretty big things of his children. Judas did not believe and ran away. Peter was lost for a bit but felt remorse quickly and came back stronger than before.

I think many more a person than I personally want to know about may study the bible and know many facts but not know God. Scripture must be studied in the context of prayer and community with others. In recent days I have come to see believers who are highly individualistic as walking dangerous ground. Those lacking a close connection to others are likely not believers. If you do not love and want to be close to others, how can you be close to the Jesus of the bible? I am not talking about extroverts or social super stars here. I am just talking about loving and serving other people, being patient, kind, and all those kinds of things. That is what gives evidence to someone’s faith. Ofcourse no one can prove what is in anyone’s heart, but I take little stock in Christian intellectuals unless I know they are very connected people.

To study the bible without an understanding of the depth and breadth of God’s love is dangerous.
And ofcourse the reverse is true. To try to be touchy feely about Christian faith with no foundation is dangerous. Both extremes can create a faith that might not really be faith in Jesus at all.

At least that is how I see it. I believe my salvation will stay, as I have weathered some things. And I believe my salvation is a process.

James, what a great question…and had a gut feeling someone would ask that question.

I don’t think academic study is demonic, if what you mean by that is chemistry or political science. But of course I do believe anything that draws people away demonic. No matter how subtle.

Tele: It’s not what you do that makes you a Christian but where you’re heart is in it. That’s why Jesus picked on the Pharisees so much. There resumes would make Loftus’ or Templeton’s look pathetic. But what did he do, pat them on the back and say that because they devoured the law and devoted their lives to the promotion of their religion that they were true believers? No.

He said they never saw God. Indeed, Jesus says there will come a time when people will say that they poured out their lives for Him but he’ll turn them away saying “I knew you not.” In other words, “we were never intimate.”

Hope that makes sense.

D., your sabbatical has done you a great good. This is an excellent post, as evidenced by the comments thus far.

Quinn and Roland commented recently at http://www.fallenandflawed.com/ex-atheist-farnworth/#comments to the effect that you (Demian) were never a true atheist, to which you replied by asking, “What are the requirements to being a true atheist?”

This post provides a good venue for an answer to that question inasmuch as it touches on and interacts with other aspects of your topic…

The “requirement” to be a “true” atheist is fundamentally the same as to be a genuine Christian (i.e., a follower of Jesus Christ): real, honest-to-goodness, no-holds-barred FAITH. Just as a real Christian (see “visible church” vs “invisible church,” above) must have an unflinching faith in the person and character of God the Three-in-One, so must the unquestioning atheist have a solid faith that no God exists. Christ’s disciples base their faith on the promises of the Bible, and its being the inspired, inerrant, infallible Word of God. The Book of God demonstrates its trustworthiness to those who believe it.

Likewise, atheism is also a religion of faith, basing its “knowledge” that there are no dieties upon certain claims of physical sciences, philosophies, or a combination thereof which, they claim, disprove the existence of any divinity, designer, etc.

Both atheism and theism are founded upon presuppositions which must be accepted and embraced by faith.

*
Upon these grounds, I point out that one most certainly CAN lose his or her faith, if it is indeed HIS or HER faith. People base our faith on suppositions of our own which, should they prove to be false, will bring our intricate structures of faith crashing down upon our heads, from whence they issued forth. The ONLY faith to which this cannot occur is the faith of the Son of God, who loved us and gave Himself for us. God’s ways are perfect. Ours are fallible. True Christian converts become just that as God’s Holy Spirit breathes life into us and replaces our own suppositions with the underlying Truth of the Good News of Jesus Christ. Apart from that occurrence, the professing Christian and the professing atheist are simply different versions of the same kind of lost souls, separated from God and without hope in the world.

There is a subtle difference between mere belief and genuine faith. We know from their behavior in Jesus’ presence that the demonic beings believe in God, which fact Paul reemphasizes. The book of Job demonstrates that satan himself believes in God and is subject to Him. But only belief that originates from the Holy Spirit can constitute Saving Faith, i.e. belief that converts a soul from death to life.

*
A bit more about the visible church and the invisible church: As Demian stated, the real church is seen only by God. But generally speaking it is found (or lies hidden) within that which is visible to mankind, the latter being the larger group. This situation existed in the Old Testament as well. The whole nation of Israel was visible to the world, and a poor testimony it was, most often, to the glory of its God. But within it was always the smaller community of the faithful. Think of such men as Moses, Joshua and Caleb, Samuel, David, Daniel and his companions. Recall such women as Rahab, Ruth, Hadassah (Esther), Elizabeth, and Mary. Remember when God’s most vocal prophet of his day asked to die, thinking that he was the only true believer left on earth, and God told him that He still had 7,000 faithful ones who had not abandoned Him. The invisible church!

*
Now, I’m not going to restate what Demian has said so wonderfully above, so I’ll close with this thought: If you don’t “get it,” it’s because you haven’t properly sought it!

That may be because you don’t want it, and that’s understandable– after all, the free gift of life will ultimately cost you everything if you receive it– If Jesus bought you with His precious blood, that means He must get what He paid for: You and everything that pertains to you: your independence, possessions, opinions, reputation, associations– everything!

Or it may be that you DO want it, but just don’t realize it yet or don’t know how to ask for it. Your desire must be wholehearted– holding nothing back. No half-baked idea that you’ll try it out & see if you like it, then decide. Ask, beg, plead– persist; don’t take ‘no’ for an answer!

If you don’t get it, God has not yet opened your eyes and, unless you strive with Him to do so, He may never, in which case you will go to your grave still guilty of sin against Him and will be judged and condemned to eternal hell. That’s because you will have embraced the LIE that Demian wrote of in this post, and God will have given you the desire of your heart, allowing you to be absorbed in strong deception, to your undoing forever.

If you don’t see, it is because you are blind in the grasp of spiritual death. Looking at the first comment on this thread I see our old friend, Teleprompter (and I mean that, Tele)– someone whose intellect I greatly respect, even though it is his worst enemy. I read your comment, Tele, and right smack-dab in the middle of it you state your problem: “…but I definitely don’t see…” I love you, my Friend, as Christ loved me when I was His enemy (if you wonder why, I have no answer), but your eyes are sightless in spiritual death– that’s why you don’t see. The god of this world has blinded your eyes.

We will each and all spend eternity in someone’s service. Pray God it may be His who loves you, and not one who hates you.

Good post. And in reality we switch the idea of perseverance around by making a false question to begin with. That false question is whether or not a Christian can loose his salvation. The proper question, however, is whether or not Jesus can loose whom He saves. We know that Scripture teaches us that He cannot loose whom He saves (John 17:6-12), and therefore salvation belongs to the Lord (Psalms 3:8; Revelation 7:10), and we ought to find joy in this (John 17:13).

Just some thoughts. This is a doctrine that I want to both rebel against because it has nothing to do with me inherently, and find great joy in because it has nothing to do with me inherently. Such a paradox.

Preservation of the saints is a sweet truth for those of us who can’t trust ourselves. God can be counted on the keep us to the very end.

I can hardly think of anything more wonderful.

Thanks for this beautiful reminder of His faithfulness.

al,

I have written a response, but it was too long for me to post in this comments section, so I made it an entry on my own blog (I hope Demian doesn’t mind that I’m mentioning this here – I can re-post some excerpts if that would help).

Al:

You claim “We will each and all spend eternity in someone’s service.”

Prove it.

Tele, I attempted to post a reply on your blog, but it didn’t take. I also meant to repost it here, but lost it. Could be because I’m so low-tech, or maybe it just wasn’t sposed to be…?

Weemaryanne, no thanks.

Enjoying the discussion here.

One of the things I wonder about ex-Christians is what they thought and now think about their own sinfulness. Part of my conversion to Christianity was being aware of the overwhelming weight of my sinfulness and that I needed redeeming. I don’t think every Christian needs to have that experience but certainly part of believing in a savior would be acknowledging that one needs saving. I empathize completely with Paul’s teaching in Romans 7 about doing what he doesn’t want to do. I’m broken. For me, since I’m intimately acquainted with myself and am daily reminded of my need of a savior it would be hard to deny what I experience so vividly and frequently.

So ex-believers, what were your thoughts on your own brokenness before deconverting, do you still have those thoughts, and if so what do you do with them?

Teleprompter: Thanks for the great reply on your blog.

Why, Al, whaddaya mean “no thanks”? Isn’t your deity important enough for you to argue in support of its existence?

@Weema,
No, He’s far too important for that.
[but nice try]

Al, you’re a bully, threatening people with eternal torture for imaginary crimes. But you don’t have to back up your claim because – why? Because your imaginary friend says you don’t have to? Or because you’re a coward as well as a bully?

Hey, I understand. Hell must be a hard sell, as the concept of infinite punishment for finite crimes just doesn’t sit well with the average Joe. No doubt it’s frustrating as — well, frustrating as hell to know that people are more willing to agree with the claim that countless trillions will NOT be tortured for eternity, therefore you have to threaten constantly just to keep ‘em scared enough to believe you. And they should pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

See? – I understand perfectly.

I realized in 1996 that I no longer believed in the Jesus myth anymore. What convinced me? Oetzi- the 5300 yr old iceman mummmy found in 1991, prehistoric cave paintings in France,100,000 year old ice cores, 20,000 year old sediment cores. All of this convinced me that the flood of Noah was a myth and since Jeus beleived it to be a real event, that makes him just a messianic pretender, just like the Jews said.

I am so sorry you do not believe in Jesus. In most the people I know who no longer believe what I see they have in common is that they were busy with church stuff and/or bible stuff manybe, but that loving connection was not there. They were into verses about the proof of God, and ignored the relational part of the bible, thus only reading the bible as a historical book with no relational context. That is just wrong.

Also, from the people I know that say they no longer have faith in Jesus, what I see in common for most of them is that they were dispointed with something that happened or did not happen in their life.

Another common factor, and this is a painful one to mention, is that that most the people I know who have walked away from faith have great trouble looking at themselves and their own issues—dare I say the word–”sin”? This is not to say the rest of us do not have the same difficulty. But I see it as a common factor.

God says that those who seek Him will find Him. We can come to Him in frustration, in doubt and in anger and with our failures. We can be honest with Him. He will not reject us. But faith in Christ demands that we are honest with ourselves as well. Jesus’ love is not a sappy, weak sort of love. He actively loves us and actively seeks us out. So often we try and drown Him out with intellectual arguements, activities, work, stuff, and whatever. Jesus is a respector of persons. He will allow us to keep running if we so choose. So painful. It is like watching your child do something you know is not going to turn out well.

Faith in Christ cannot be wrapped up neatly like a Christmas present. God sought out people of higher stature like Abraham, to the worst of men like the thief on the cross. He sought out the intellectual like Paul, to the down trodden ones like the woman who had very little but gave what she had. Each of these people were at a very different place in life, and God met them where they were. He still does that today.

Mark Smith, I’d be interested in your answer to my question above. What did you think of and how did you experience your sinfulness as a believer and and now as a non-believer?

Also, with your reasons for deconverting it sounds like you’d make a horrible young earth creationist and Bible literalist. But neither of those things is the same as being a Christian is it?

Rob,

First, I was neither a Biblical literalist nor a young-Earth creationist before my deconversion. I didn’t even try to reconcile science and my religious beliefs, because I was not particularly bothered by the potential controversy between the two subjects. The main things which prodded my deconversion were theological and historical observations (namely, the indifference to what people believed evidenced by the multiplicity of religious thought and the way religions developed).

It’s painful to admit this, but my initial acceptance of science was taken on the same good faith from the authority figures in my life, the same way I came to my religious beliefs. However, I have tried to start from scratch and scrutinize all of my beliefs through the same critical approach.

As a believer, I saw myself as a sinner, an imperfect person, trying to do what was right by my beliefs, seeking forgiveness. I tried to love other people. As a non-believer, I live by the same fundamental idea, even if the principles are stated differently – I believe that other people deserve my respect, because I feel that society is improved if people treat each other with empathy and fairness. I also realize that people make mistakes or just act like jerks occasionally. If I do a wrong to someone, I have to live with that feeling of guilt that I have mistreated someone. If it bothers me a great deal, I try to seek forgiveness from the person I have transgressed against, if that is possible. If not, I just move on and try to do better. I realize that some people do not feel badly about what they do, but I realize that the consequences of their actions will likely catch up to them, in one way or another, and if they don’t, I realize that life is unfair.

@Weemaryanne, easy on the flamebait please.

I post/lurk here because of the general lack of posts like yours, please don’t spoil it.

You could easily have made the same criticisms politely, and guess what? you might even get a response that way.

James W, my initial criticism was polite and guess what? it got only a “no thanks” from Al.

So, you can sit on it.

Genesis does not say Adam and Eve were created with the ability to live forever- Many things in life are “perfect”, but it doesn’t mean they won’t wear out. The Eden story is all allegory- most Jews say so, too and it’s “their” book. The sin everyone talks about is a strawman invention and Jesus is the solution invented by the clergy class.
Funny how sin changes- 200 years ago it wasn’t a sin to have slaves, it wasn’t a sin to beat your wife and kids, either. What we call sin is failure to obey the collective moral code of ones tribe, clan, country,nation, etc.
Before the invention of prisons the only safe way to deal with violent criminals was to kill them. We can now lock them up for life, if needed. Notice how our code changed from what the Bible gave us? I will give all of you Christians a secret as to why religion doesn’t work- Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle.

Liz, don’t feel sorry- I assume you use plan A-
a Christain might have some doubts about Jesus/faith, but they choose to believe on faith, until such time as god shows them otherwise. I had doubts, too and decided to go with plan B- to “not believe” until such time as god showed me otherwise. The entire Christian faith is requires them to be proved wrong before they change their mind. Remember Saddam Hussein? his country was invaded because he couldn’t prove he didn;t have any WMD’s- well short of digging up every foot of iraqi soiul, he could never prove he didn’t have any.

In like manner, nobody can prove to a committed Christian that the Jesus story is a myth either. For them, faith trumps all logic. Now, when they fail to prove that Jesus is god to me, they act like it’s all my fault. Really? I don’t think so.

Over 90% of the Earth’s creation is extinct. If god created them, then he is also a part of their extinction. Why create something, if you know it will just go extinct? Just as big bad T-Rex got too big for his pants, humans will also pass from this Earth, only to be replaced by another top predator.That is the plan god has for life, it seems. In 500 million years it will be to hot for our species anyway- some green slime will be all that is left at the end, just as it was in the beginning.

Anyway, none of this has any bearing on Jesus who had no divine knowledge of anything. He talked about rumors of wars, when the reality is there are no more rumors of wars ever since the invention of radio. Now with spy satellites we know of wars in minutes. The Bible writers couldn’t even figure out what the sign over Jesus’s cross said. Three versions, no less. I know, it doesn’t matter to committed Christians, if the Jesus story gets mucked up in places- it’s a great story- just like Santa Claus. well, I’m going to bed now- I can sleep in- no church for me.

Thanks Teleprompter for the honest and thoughtful reply. I wasn’t trying to imply you were a YEC, just mentioning because Mark Smith did. Let me ask one more question about you before we get to some of the ideas you brought up. Did you have a time where weren’t a believer and then converted to Christianity or were you always a Christian up until your deconversion?

Please help me unpack what you mean by “the indifference to what people believed evidenced by the multiplicity of religious thought and the way religions developed”. Are you saying that since so many people sincerely believe so many things that we could never know which if any are right?

As to taking things on the authority of others and now trying to start from scratch with your beliefs, I don’t think any of us ever get to the view from nowhere as the unbiased observer. That doesn’t mean we can’t and shouldn’t allow and compensate for our biases when seeking the truth but you’re never really going to get rid of all the things that go in to making Teleprompter who he is and might affect your reason and judgement. The fact that you feel the need to get the unbiased view from nowhere is a product of when and where you live and your past experiences too so you will have to get rid of that as well.

My understanding of sin in the moment of conversion did not lead to me trying to lead a better moral life. My sin made it obvious to me that no amount of good living would make up for not just the rottenness of what I’ve done but the rottenness of who I am. I.e. I didn’t just need forgiveness for stealing the stickers from the card store at age 8 but also for the selfishness that made me think I deserved them more than the store owner. In that instant I knew I needed a redeemer. The “better” living comes as a result of knowing Jesus and his love for me more fully (even in my rebellion toward him) and through his example being able to better love others who don’t necessarily love me. In my BC days I thought I was forgiven. At conversion I knew I hadn’t been but was now. I’ve heard a famous atheist who’s name escapes me now say that the downside of atheism is that there’s no guarantee that the good guys win, there’s no forgiveness, and there’s no redemption. The no forgiveness one seems like it would be the hardest to live with day in and day out.

Mark Smith- I’m enjoying what you’re writing. I see what you think of sin now but what did you think of it before 1996? Just trying to understand what the faith you deconverted from was like.

It seems like you’re proposing moral relativism, in which case 200 years ago in the USA chattel slavery really was okay because it was the societal norm. And by extension, it’s okay now where it exists because the people doing it think it’s okay. I think biblical, objective morals would say that it was wrong then and now. Christianity doens’t hold that society (even Christian society or a Christian) ever lives morally, just that we can know objective right from objective wrong and that there’s a remedy for the wrong.

Lastly, as a physics degree holder and a wanna be theologian, I can’t wait to hear how not knowing Jesus’ precise momentum and position = no God.

PS Weemaryanne I hope you stick around and contribute. Anybody that quotes the Fonz can’t be all bad.

There is a man named Lee Strobel who was an investigative reporter for the Tribune years back. He was a pretty tough person. Long story short, today he is a believer. He writes various books and lectures and has been in debates and discusiions concerning science and the bible, whether or not the crucifixtion really happened, etc…. He is a good person to look up and to write to. Lee is a pretty busy man these days, but he loves talking about why he now believes in the God of the bible and is happy to take on a disagreeement.

I do disagree with Al on a Christian having to have unshakable faith. David in Psalms questioned God, and over and over in the bible God’s people were afraid, asked God for a sign that what He was saying was for real…. But certainly Christians who have walked with God for awhile and really mean it tend to have a pretty strong faith. Many a follower of God in the bible had their faith shaken but then came to the conclusion that they believed in the God of the bible. Peter would be an example, and Thomas would be another one. Even Abraham thought it was a joke when he was going to have Issac in his old age. And the father of John the Baptist had trouble buying it that he was going to be a father in his old age. So believers, and strong believers, have doubted.

I agree with Ben Affleck when he said he read Matthew, and it is a book filled with God’s love.
God is all about love.

If those who have fallen away from God do not believe in Him anymore — than what truth do you live by? Is there a truth you expect others to live by? Are there expectations you have of other people and of yourself? If so, what are those expectations?

Looking foward to reading your thoughts….

Rob, that’s very kind, thank you. Alas, the only question I’ve asked has been ignored, so I’m done here.

To be honest to Weemaryanne, your first post wasn’t what would be read as a question, but was a typical statement by a nonbeliever that has been gone over an infinite amount of times since time began. You said to “prove” that we’d all be in the service of somebody one day. It seemed a little threatening, and the comments to this blog just don’t go in that direction. Many of us here are comfortable with our faith and are past feeliny any obligation to prove it. Though we may have decent conversations when non threatening honest questions are posed. We’re sorry if your initial comment was misunderstood as typical debate bait.

J Shelton, why should asking for proof of a claim be threatening?

I find the “false convert” argument even more scary. Because these people are COMMITTED Christians. They look just like you! If they are false converts, then you could be a false convert, too, and just not know it yet!

Yes, I agree…looks are scary. That’s why I don’t trust ‘em.

Mark Smith I hope you come back and address Heisenberg as you mentioned earlier. You have a unique set of objections that I hope we get to discuss them more.

You said: “For them, faith trumps all logic”

This doesn’t have to be. When your faith agrees with the world as you experience it, faith doesn’t trump logic but stands beside it. I find several arguments for God’s existence persuasive (Cosmological, fine tuning, moral, teleological) and I find the historicity of a risen Christ the best explanation for the early Christian church. I will agree with you that it is nigh on impossible to prove anything (render all counter arguments invalid). But, you put pants on this morning (I hope!) despite the fact that you couldn’t prove they weren’t laced with anthrax. So we take what evidence we have to make reasonable conclusions. That’s exactly how I feel about faith in Jesus. It’s faith that is reasonable.

You said roughly : ” Why did god create so many species just to have them go extinct?”

I would add to that, why take 14.5 B years to make a universe that is suitable for humans? Both questions divulge your engineering background and beg the same question, why is God so wasteful?” Which is a good question to an ex-engineer like me but to an all-powerful God who is outside of time and has unlimited resources it’s moot. Maybe he made dinosaurs for the same reason I make snowmen, because I like to.

You said : “there are no more rumors of wars ever since the invention of radio. Now with spy satellites we know of wars in minutes. The Bible writers couldn’t even figure out what the sign over Jesus’s cross said. Three versions, no less”

I’ve never heard the radio comment before. I’m not sure I follow the logic though. Since most spy satellites are owned and operated by governments and we know governments sometimes lie I think you could still have rumors of war. Certainly everyone doesn’t have access to satellite data so some people will still have rumors. Interesting idea though. Re: the three signs, if you described me as the fellow in jeans right now typing on the computer you’d be correct. If I described myself as wearing a white shirt sitting by a fish tank I’d be correct too. Different perspectives written for different audiences and not giving every single bit of information doesn’t make a contradiction.

Laura: Between you and me I’ve got my doubts about Chuck Norris too.

Weemary – as I already said, I think many of us read your remark as the typical non believers remark. Generally an athiest/agnostic will start a religious debate with the request to “prove it”, and many times with no real interest in the conversation but to lure the believers into getting defensive. Generally nonbelievers are wired to need black and white evidence in front of their faces to feel comfortable accepting something.. and that’s ok. But I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say that neither side of the coin has to right to say to the other to prove anything, because neither you nor I can provide the sufficient “proof” the other is looking for that we will, or will not be in the service of a someone after death. I’m not sure what types of “proof” the religious people in your life have offered to you, other than maybe some basic historical records that can’t really be disputed. We have faith in the God of the bible, but when we say “no thanks” to the offer to prove his existance, it’s not because God’s not important enough to defend. It’s because He’s too important to argue over and create a rollercoaster that causes everyone to spew word vomit all over the place.

@Weemaryanne: I think what j shelton and Al are getting at is that we are not obligated to satisfy your intellectual curiosity simply to make you happy when it’s clear you won’t be happy with anything we say.

Why get into a war of attrition when the sum will equal zero?

I believe we’d all be happy to answer your question if it pushed the discussion forward…

But if there’s a risk were simply going to grind things to halt, why waste the equity?

Hope that makes sense.

I don’t care whether this discussion goes forward or sideways or does one-handed cartwheels down the middle of main street. I heard someone make a claim about everyone’s future and that means he was making a claim about MY future. How dare anyone make such a claim and then tell me that I have no right to demand and/or you have no obligation to provide proof that this is a future which I may indeed expect to experience?

Weemaryanne I think most of us here that believe in hell do so in no small part because Jesus talked about it at great length. So your request for proof of hell is like so many satellite issues that revolve around the main question. Who is Jesus?

“it’s too important for ‘proof’ ”
“you have no right to demand”
“we have no obligation to answer”
“it’s a satellite question”

Got any more lame-o excuses, fellas?

Weemaryanne, there’s always the “you just have to have faith!” excuse you forgot.

Weemary – Are you angry with us because we believe different than you? Are you angry that we voice what we believe because we are at liberty to do so?

Here’s another one: “God did it.”

Seriously, though, Weemaryanne and Laura, the Bible does encourage Christians to give a defense to those who ask us for a reason for the hope in us. 1 Peter 3:15.

So consider the following list an abbreviated version of my defense for the hope inside me [and I apologize for dragging my feet on this...it wasn't cause I didn't have answers...I'm just enormously lazy]:

50 Reasons Why Christ Came to Die [You can download the PDF for free.]

The Importance of Hell by Tim Keller

Eleven transcripts on debates between William Lane Craig and prominent philosophers, scientists, and biblical scholars on the truth claims of biblical Christianity.

And Romans 1:19-22 is always a good one.

Now, it may take a little elbow grease to work through all that, but if you are truly motivated to find answers, it won’t phase you.

Hope that helps.

J Shelton, I can hardly be angry about what you believe when (grinds teeth) You. Won’t. Explain. It. To. Me.

Demian, thanks for the link to the debates- I only looked at the debate Between Craig and Dr Ehrman on, the historical basis for a belief in Jesus. Dr Ehrman won this debate easily. There is no valid historical proof for the Jesus myth.
Various oral traditions written down 25-50 years after the fact do not equal historical proof. One just needs to go to snopes.com and see how urban legends morph in just a few years- imagine what 25 years would do- add in a few vsions from the likes of Paul and you have quite a miracle story that just gets better and better. My Jesus saviour is better than your pagan Gods, stuff.

@Mark, glad you appreciated the links for the debates. I’m curious, how did Dr. Ehrman win this debate easily? How’d you come to that conclusion?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Dr. Craig’s answers to objections similar to Mark Smith’s re: his debate with Ehrman. The whole thing is well thought out but especially read #4 where he uses Ehrman to refute Ehrman.

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5757

Hey Demian,

Great to see you posting again.

(sorry I’m late, folks).

al mentioned this (perseverance) idea quite a long time back and in response I wrote a post with my thoughts on the idea (please excuse the self-linkage).

I guess the big question for me is this:

It seems you are implying that there is absolutely no way to tell (from your Christian viewpoint) if someone claiming to be a Christian is genuinely saved. The one and only way to tell is that they never lose their belief. Is that the case?

If so I think then we can never know if anyone is a “true Christian”. I would think that this idea is rather unsettling for those who consider themselves Christians rather than comforting as you suggest.

Disclaimer: Whether it is comforting or not may has no bearing on an idea’s truth, but it may have an effect on their willingness to believe it. But I guess you knew that.

Hey Eshu, That is, in the end, what I am saying.

That could be not only troubling but also confusing, especially since I’ve posted more than once on the topic of how to tell if you are a true Christian…

The comforting part comes, however–and the assurance for the believer–from the Word of God and testimony of the HS and the fact that we are not ultimately responsible for our salvation or perseverance.

But even for the person who “never loses their belief” and dies that way, we STILL can’t be sure.

I’ve never argued for an air-tight case. Just sufficient evidence.

And the mild trepidation that causes is exactly what Paul meant when he said, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your salvation IN FEAR AND TREMBLING, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”

It keeps us alert, sober, mindful not to get cocky, inflated.

Hope that helps.

Thanks Demian, that does indeed clarify your position.
(HS = Holy Spirit?)

I guess from my point of view this idea is rather academic. As I don’t think Christianity’s central claims are true, no one is actually saved, so all believers are, in my opinion, in the same position. The only difference between believers and non-believers is, well, what they believe.

And if I may split hairs here, looking at your post title, “From Believer to Unbeliever: The Lie We All Fall For” – that seems different to what you’re claiming. I think you’re saying that people can be believers (in that they sincerely believe something), without necessarily being truly saved. In which case they could certainly go from believer to unbeliever. I think the people Teleprompter mentioned above were sincere in their beliefs. Don’t you? Likewise, I see no reason to think that believers in other religions are insincere; at least some have been willing to die for their beliefs, which is something that, as an atheist, I find utterly tragic.

Perhaps a more accurate title would’ve been:
“From Truly Saved to Not Truly Saved: The Lie We All Fall For”?

Admittedly that sounds horribly clumsy!

Probably a silly question, but did it ever occur to anyone that Charles Templeton, Ken Daniels, and John Loftus could still be saved even IF they think they’ve deconverted and declared or attacked Christianity.

Wouldn’t that be ironic.