Fallen and Flawed

Demian, you’re hitting this one hard.

Great work, you Christian hedonist.

Thank you, Jonathan. That means a lot coming from you, sir.

A funny story…

Eric and I had been Christians for about a year. We’d also found out we were going to be parents a second time, so after prayer and much thought, we started scaling back our extra expenditures and worked to be more prudent with the food that God blessed us with. This meant a radical change in our grocery list. Less beef and lots more chicken, more rice and beans and other staples–everywhere we could cut back, we did. I re-learned the fine art of turning a few canned items and a cheap cut of meat into a delicious meal.

Toward the end of my pregnancy, we were walking through the local HEB when we passed one of the ladies handing out samples. She called us back and handed us two toothpicks with a juicy bite of New York Strip steak on the end. Grinning, we popped the sample into our mouths.

We used to eat at fine restaurants five days or more a week, choking down mounds of rich food and desserts and leaving the leftovers to rot in the fridge. But because of our budget-motivated change in diet, that single bite of steak satisfied us more than several years of Pappadeauxs and Outback Steakhouse ever did.

I couldn’t tell you most of what I ate at all those places. But my mouth still waters at the memory of the flavor of that one-inch square of meat.

So it is with the Christian hedonist. We take joy in what we are given, and whatever moment we are in we focus on the God who placed us there and praise Him. As Piper so aptly put it, “He is most glorified in us, when we are most satisfied in Him.” We’re glad for the chicken. Sometimes we’re given a bite of steak.

But above all else, we are assured that when we dine at the Father’s table, it won’t matter what’s on our plates at all. We’ll simply be content beyond imagination, just being in His company.

Denita,

It’s a side question, but don’t you see a clash between being a Christian and chomping down God’s sentient creatures just to satisfy your appetite? To quote Lisa Simpson: “Good news! We don’t HAVE to eat meat!”

I’m sure Denita could speak for herself, but since I beat her here: What clash are you talking about?

And why in the world would it be good news that we don’t have to eat meat?

whats with the iconic image?

Bob: You like that? I think it’s nifty.

Surprise, surprise.

So tell me something, Jag. While you believe you have a clear conscience with your god, how precisely DO you keep up with your protein, iron, zinc, calcium, omega-3 fatty acids, Vitamin A, Vitamin B12, and Vitamin B2 intake? Using handy-dandy little nutrient pills? Several handfuls of brewer’s yeast a day? Super-concentrated vegetable sources? In short, the many unnatural forms of nutritional enhancement that vegetarians (and especially vegans) must take to supplement their diets? Or is beri-beri, pernicious anemia, and irreversible neurological damage OK as long as you’re not eating Ol’ Bessie?

Or do you just spend the entire day eating nothing but plate upon heaping plate of tofu, seaweed, spinach, and beans and then hope a few dozen tablespoons of flax seed will help your now impacted colon?

Certain crucial vitamins and nutrients are only obtainable in a significant enough bioavailibility in animal sources. Funny thing, that.

Genesis 9:3 says that shortly after he took his first post-Flood steps off the Ark, Noah was told by God that the animals were as available for his sustenance as the plants. The only stipulation was that he kill them first and drain their blood on the ground. So don’t expect me to put that chicken sandwich down, thanks.

And also, don’t expect me to continue hijacking this thread to answer to your offended sensibilities, either.

Demian–where’d you get that image? It’s really cool!

Easy there, Denita, I think he might have struck a nerve…

Naw, I just get tired of the false assumption that a vegetarian has a clearer conscience or is somehow more “enlightened.”

Returning to the Genesis 9 account, the reason people were to spill the blood on the ground was as a reminder that they were doing what they had to do precisely because they were being forced to kill in order to sustain themselves. Our dietary necessities are because of our fallen nature.

Yeah, I do believe that vegetarians (and vegans especially) have a clearer conscience. Having said that, I am not saying that it is possible to live an entirely cruelty-free lifestyle. As Buddhists say, life is suffering. Nor Am I saying that I am in any way better than meat eaters. However, we can do a lot to minimise the suffering we cause. Minimising our intake of animal foods helps in that, but it is also beneficial for your health and for the whole world, as animal “production” is a major factor in greenhouse gas production. So my good news is precisely that – you do not have to eat meat! You will feel better for it, your body will thank you and the world wil thank you.

As for nutrition, an unbalanced diet is simply bad for you, whether meat-based or vegetarian. There are more malnourished meat-eaters than veg*ns, however. Have you watched the movie Super Size Me? The only nutrient that vegan diet does not provide is vitamin B12. It is because once humans switched to animal-based diet, they gradually lost the ability to synthesise it. But it’s not a big problem – you can get supplements, or many foods are enriched. I am a little different, and will not get enough B12 regardless what I eat, as my body lacks the intrinsic factor required for absorption from food. I therefore have to take B12 injections – which has nothing to do with being veg*n.

Most of the world’s population is veg*n – not because it wants to, but because not many people can afford meat outside the rich countries. One of the areas where Buddhism, Hinduism or Jainism trump traditional Christianity is that they recommend vegeterianism as a higher moral principle, which Christians have largely forgotten. As a reminder then, nowhere in the NT is Jesus reported as eating meat. Even the last supper – supposedly a paschal meal – was veg*n. And many early Christians (Ebionites!) were veg*n too.

Subdue the earth = liking animals with gravy.. just sayin.

I’m sorry I think the blood I ate last night in my pork chop has clouded my ability to be sympathetic. Now that all I’ve had is a blueberry muffin, I can clearly see the err of my ways.

Wait.. wasn’t the last supper Passover meal?? Typically a lamb was involved I thought..

I don’t know what Bible you’re reading, Jag, but Jesus was definitely not vegetarian or vegan. What proof do you have that Jesus did not eat meat?

The Passover meal consisted of roast lamb in observation of the decree by God in Exodus 12:3-10. There is no record anywhere in the Gospels that shows that the Christ refused meat during the Passover meal.

Mark 14:12-18 even details the killing of that Passover lamb by the Disciples and the whole group–including Jesus–eating it.

Then there was what He ate in Luke 24: 41-42, to prove that He was not a ghost.

Why would a vegetarian share a breakfast of fish with the Apostles, as detailed in John 21:12?

Why would a vegetarian hand out fish with the loaves to feed several thousand people not just once, but twice? (Mark 6:35-41, Mark 8:5-7, Matthew 14:16-19, Matthew 15:34-36, etc.)

What proof can you show me that the Son of God was a vegan? I see another omnivore in the Scriptures.

J Shelton,

Thanks for your comments. Whether the last supper was passover meal or not will depend on which gospel you read… Paul actually wrote the oldest description of the last supper (1 Corinthians 11:23-26) but, interestingly, he did not mention any dates at all! Associating Jesus with Passover came with a later tradition, which began to interpret Jesus with the paschal lamb.

Whether it was Passover or not, however, there is not a single mention in the gospel that Jesus ever ate meat. I do not have proof that Denita asks for that Jesus was a vegetarian, and never claimed I did – which is precisely why I only claimed that Jesus is never reported as eating meat (but Denita missed that!).

Mark 14 certainly does not mention eating lamb… and we have early Christian traditions according to which both Jesus and his brother James were vegetarians. No rock-solid proof, of course, but some convincing evidence.

Of course Jesus is reported as multiplying fishes (and eating fish after his resurrection), but remember that fish was an early Christian sysmbol, and most probably that is why those stories were invented. Besides, multiplied fishes wold have been a cruelty-free product, just like artificial meat, which does not come from a living animal and is therefore vegetarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat).

Wait.. those stories were invented?? So that I have a correct understanding of where you are coming from.. what is your understanding of who Jesus is?

But not to get off subject:

Matthew 26:2 2 “As you know, the Passover is two days away–and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified.”

Mark 14:1 2 “As you know, the Passover is two days away–and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified.”

Luke 22:1 1 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was approaching,

John 13:1 1 It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love.

Each gospel acct specifically notes the last supper was indeed a Passover meal, so I’m not sure which gospel you think is not consistant with this..

I’ll agree that if the gospel accounts don’t necessarily say Jesus ate meat, we have some pretty convincing evidence that considering the meal was a Passover meal, he very well ate the meat.

I still don’t see why vegetarians would have a clearer conscience than a meat eater. Does that include tigers and lions? And do vegans have plans to rehabilitate them, too?

I get what you are saying about eating healthier, smaller amounts. That’s one thing. It’s quite another to say we should feel guilt eating meat.

Also, the absence of something is NEVER the proof of something else. Just because we don’t see Jesus eating meat, doesn’t mean we can suggest he’s a vegetarian. We never saw him poop, but since he’s a human we can be pretty sure he did. The same way that we can be pretty certain that he ate meat like his fellow Hebrews.

But let’s say he was a vegetarian…so what? Should we do the same? Why? It’s never about What Would Jesus Do, but what DID Jesus do. Which is live a sinless, die, raise from the dead and ascend in heaven.

But you don’t believe that, so what does it matter.

Demian… I love you for that comment. And it is all the more comforting that Jesus DID poop. Now I can practice it in ASSURANCE!

Jonathan, stop it. You’re making me blush.

And too… what about Peter’s vision from heaven (the animals lowered in the sheet, kill and eat bit) in Acts about not calling unclean what God has said is permissible for eating? It made a point so Peter would preach to Gentiles, but another point still remains: God gave permission after the flood to eat animals. Also, those coverings Adam and Eve got were skins.. animal skins. So there was bloodshed from a sacrifice to cover the guilt of their sin.

I too feel pretty confident that Jesus hanging out around campfire’s with 12 younger adult dudes may have even possibly passed gas for the sake of giggles.. like groups of people around campfire’s late into the evening do. This too gives me assurance

j shelton, this gives a whole new meaning to confession.

J Shelton,

As biblical scholars put it, what we find in the gospels is an interpretive portrait of Jesus, not historical events. The gospel authors wrote 1-3 generations after Jesus, they used pre-existing written sources as well as oral tradition (which is admitted in the text), and none of them was an eyewitness or even met the living Jesus. There is a good reason some miraculous stories were gradually added. I don’t believe in a God that changes. And we do not see biblical miracles today. We know mental illness is not caused by demons, and we know how to cure it. We know that leprosy and other illnesses are not caused by sin. But it was different in 1 century BCE. Virgin births were a dime a dozen. Anyone who was anyone, including Roman deities and emperors had virgin mothers! Paul and Mark (our oldest NT sources about Jesus) never even heard about the virgin birth, but later writers felt compelled to add a story that would show that Jesus is not inferior to the Roman heroes. All the other miracle stories make more sense if we look for their theological meaning and do not ignore their sociopoloitical context rather than take them literally.

Sorry, you didn’t read your gospels deeply enough, instead you seem to have looked to confirm your point. But the date of the last supper is far from clear in the gospels:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_john.htm

I do appreciate our views of Jesus are quite different, yet yours is not the kind of Jesus I could believe in – I find no reason or basis for that.

Demian,

Tigers and lions evolved to be predators. Human are not even natural carnivores. Are you denying that killing animals for food is causing harm to sentient beings? This is precisely why it is good news that we do not have to eat meat. We can thrive without it. Maybe killing for food is the real original sin?

I agree with you totally, it’s not about doing (or not doing) exactly what Jesus did, but following his teaching. And since it includes love for God, then to me, this includes love for all creation. How can you kill (10 commandments!) and be sinless?

Have you heard about the Edenic diet? As a liberal I do not believe in the concept on a literal level, but spiritually it does make a lot of sense – and it is a concept developed by conservative Christians like3 yourself! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edenic_diet

Thanks for clearing up your views Jag.