Fallen and Flawed

I’m perplexed at what exactly impassibility teaches. You said, “To say that God is impassible is to say that God is without passion.” Then you defined passion as: “any powerful feeling or emotion.” Finally, you said, “God has feelings.” Does this not say that God is passible? Or does impassibility mean that God’s feelings, though they exist, don’t change? And if that’s the case, in what sense is he impassible? Because he’s not prone to being tossed about by his passions (as we are, say, by grief)? I’m just trying to get a grasp on what each side is claiming.

Good question, James, and not an easy idea to grasp, I agree…I think that’s what’s contributed to its confusion and decline in popularity…Impassibility means that God has emotions but those emotions are perfect and under control, where as if he were “passible”…or with passion…he’d be dominated by unpredictable, volatile mood swings. That’s probably how I should have defined passion the first time. Hope that helps.

I guess I can see the argument that God isn’t moody if that’s what we mean by “passion”. But dictionary.com is telling me the #1 definition is “any powerful or compelling emotion or feeling, as love or hate”. And God certainly has powerful emotions, far more powerful than we can comprehend.

No, God isn’t like us. But we’re like Him. We’re made in His image.

If someone asked me the simple question “Does God have passion” or “Is God passionate”, I’d answer Yes without hesitation. His passion for His people is incredible. But I’m using passion in the sense of a strong, powerful, unrelenting, jealous love that is forever unchanging. He is also passionate in His hate of sickness, death, and sin.

When I saw mention of God “needing” something, it reminded me of the notes from a series I’m watching. A session or two ago there was this comment in the notes,

“The God who has everything wants us because He is love. Love is not toleration but
desire. The God who has everything still wants something. Why? Not because He is
needy, but because He is the fountain of desire. Desire implies want but not lack. God
wants the ones He loves without lacking anything.”

This isn’t a topic I’ve explored or researched in depth, and I didn’t follow the links you posted to other authors. I’m just writing my initial reaction.

I am attempting a short comment for the benefit of those who belive that Jesus is the exact representation of God’s nature (from Hebrews); and is God in the flesh (from John); so that if we know Jesus we know the Father (also from John). Those who are taught by God’s Spirit, who explains Jesus, who explains the Father, knows that God most certainly connects to our needs and losses and feelings. This is the spiritual connection of love. Do not let people who are taught by some Theologian tell you that God does not suffer with those who suffer. They are children of men, taught by children of men, who listen to children of men because they do not listen to God’s Spirit of truth.

This is very interesting. I am currently trying to write an essay on ‘the suffering of God’ and trying to get my head around this whole subject with big words that I can’t pronounce let alone spell. however the question of whether God suffers in a big question that needs to be addressed if we are to understand human suffering.

The whole term and doctrine would seem to stem back to greek time and one of these Greek ways was to conceive God as “impassible”, removed from any capacity to suffer, indeed to feel, as men do.

But if Jesus points to the father and as DTC points out above, if we see jesus we have seen the father. Jesus weeped, she loved, jesus was compassionate… would this then not point us to what God is like as a whole. Just thinking out loud!

Also if God did not feel, or if he wasn’t passionate wouldn’t this make him distant… the bible speaks of Him as compassionate, that would be an emotion, a feeling, but that is filled with passion to do something, ie at the cross.

If God is omniscient – All knowing, wouldn’t God know what feelings are, what they feel like, what pain would feel like, what Joy would be like, what sadness would be like, what grief and anger would be like. That doesn’t mean He changes He just knows all things.

We are made in the image of God, if that is so don’t you think that maybe we feel because God feels, we grieve, because God can grieve over His children, that we know Joy, because he first knew joy, we can be passionate, because he if passionate, we can love, and feel love and know love, because he is love. Why couldn’t an all powerful God suffer or feel the pain of His children walking away from Him, that doesn’t change who He is, just enforces who He is! A God who is completely love, that doesn’t change, but can have feeling and emotion. We change because we are in time and are sinful people…God is perfect, His ways are perfect, but sometimes don’t you think we try and fit God into our little theological boxes and if it doesn’t fit then God is wrong and we are right? I battle with this topic, but its an interesting topic, so these are my random thoughts. Thanks

Jonathan and DM: I’m glad you latched on to this topic.

As I point out in the title, this is an argument for God’s emotions. That’s biblical.

But my point is in the doctrine of God’s impassability: a God blissfully unmoved by grief.

That’s simply another way of saying he’s steadfast in his decisions–the pleadings of unrepentant sinners won’t move him [think Rich Man and Lazarus parable], for example.

He can and did suffer. He does grieve. But he’s simply not moved by that grief say like you and I might be if we saw our child getting punished for something they’ve done and thus commuting their sentence.

[Sorry for all the punishment metaphors...just coming easily to mind.]

Something else to keep in mind, though: Job challenged God that he didn’t know the sufferings of humans. That he couldn’t relate. He met that challenge through the life and death of Jesus Christ.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Thanks for your reply. I see that God moves in action for His people and His world, we see this clearly through scripture. For God not to be moved by grief, would suggest that he is somewhat out there and not personal. To be moved by grief can be for good and as God is ultimate good and the essence of love, he moves into action, throughout the old testament and yes in the life of Christ. I agree he doesn’t move in the sense of who he is, He doesn’t change, but everyday and in the OT he sees His people being punished and He moves into action, that doesn’t change who he is, that defines who He is, a God who is complete, personal and active and takes the first step.

the pleadings of unrepentant sinners won’t move him…. I believe God won’t move from who He is, but is always ready to move into action at the repentant sinner. The question sometimes, well alot of the time, our emotions are out of control, grief, anger etc, and so we are moved by them, well if we are in the image of God, I believe maybe God knows all these emotions, but isn’t moved in His character, He is moved into action…. and that’s amazing. I believe He knows them all because He is Omniscient. Before the creation of the world.. He would know all emotions.

However about Him moving into action… like with grief etc. I laid in bed last night and I was praying about this whole subject of suffering, battling it in my head… then I had this thought. We so often say God where are you, when we see suffering around us, When maybe God is saying where are my people, making a difference. We are His hands and feet on this earth… And so for God to be moved by grief, doesn’t change who He is, just confirms it, but He is crying out for His people to go and be Himself(Jesus)on this earth. For me that is God being moved by grief. And when we as Gods people grasp that… Gods impassibility maybe becomes passible, that He suffers when His people suffer, the ones He has created suffer, when they walk away from the love, when they ruin their own lives through stupid decisions, when I myself go down the wrong path and get into serious sin, My God grieves and is moved, and is calling me back. And will do His utmost, by whatever way He chooses, to bring me back. I struggle to understand why we can’t believe it a God who is passable. When I see a child suffer, wouldn’t I as human grieve and be moved to action (but many times I don’t – because of sin), how much more would God as creator of that child’s life, grieve and be moved to action… and use Hid people to reach out and comfort and care. To be Passable for me doesn’t mean God changes, but underlines who He is and has always been, a God who cares, who never changes, who is constant love, who is passionate for what He believes in and that’s His pinnacle of creation – you and I – as we are the carriers of His glory. He will do whatever it takes and be moved into action to win our hearts… but so often I believe He grieves because His church stay still and are waiting for God to do something and God is crying out for us to go. that’s always been his plan, He gave this earth to us, gave us authority to rule on this earth and what a flipping mess we have made.

I believe also (sorry I have gone away from original debate…he he)that God has always known human suffering, He had always known what they would go through when we turned our back on God, but still in His love risked it…amazing. I compared this the other day with a friend and said, parents – I am not one yet – but couples who decide to bring a child into the world, we should ask why, why would you do that? why would you risk that? look around you and see other children who have grown up, who have now become murderers, rapists, or just the ones who have turned their back on their parents, who have been expelled from school, why would you do that when you see the big picture, you see what that child could become – but we do, because we want to love them, embrace them, build them up to be people, risking ours lives and love on them, really not knowing what they may become – But we question God and say, ‘Why would He create humans, knowing that they may fail, knowing the big picture?, I believe for the same reasons above. And I believe He grieves and is moved, and is shaping His plan through humanity and one day will bring in back to its original plan. Amen to that!!

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

Right I am tired and I am going to bed… Good decussions guys

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