Fallen and Flawed

Why do they find it hard to accept that Jesus is God? Two big reasons.
1)The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society teaches that only they can rightly interpret scripture. They give the words of scripture different meanings than what the Bible says it means. “Firstborn” (Col 1:15) means first created. “Born again” is only relegated to 144,000 witnesses. “Grace” is not a free gift, but an opportunity to work for salvation.
They also teach many things that simply can’t be found in scripture at all – Jesus is really the angel Michael; when he was on earth he was a perfect human, but not Jehovah God. When he was resurected, it was not physically but spiritually only – he ‘borrowed’ bodies when he needed to show the wounds; Jesus had to be born again, etc…

2) The New World Translation mistranslates almost every verse that points to the deity of Christ. John 1:1; 8:58; Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:8, etc. Almost every NT reference to the OT with Lord is mistransated as Jehovah so that Romans 10:13 says “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”

I highly recommend going here – http://www.towertotruth.net/audio.htm and downloading the Walter Martin audio on JWs and the real Jesus.

I guess it boils down to what the definition of is… is.

In a cross cultural conversation, one between two obviously different languages, the problem of properly communicating the meaning of your words is evident. What we don’t realize is that the same holds true to cultural conversations that occur between people of the same language.

The danger inherent is that the two sides use the same words but mean quite different things. Which speaks to the importance of fighting for the firm definition of the terms we use in “Christian” culture.

So when someone claims Jesus we need to make sure that Jesus is the same one we follow.

@Van: Thanks for the solid answers. And the tip to the Walter Martin audio. I’ve got a copy of his Kingdom of the Cults, and I like that, so I’m looking forward to the audio.
…
@Odi: Precision is key, my friend. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Hi Demian, I like the title of this post, I am by nature a dissenter. I don’t like being lied to, and stick up for truth. Being raised Catholic, I had never read the Bible, the Catholic religion just doesn’t encourage it as much as they should. As an adult, I had some experience with other faiths, even studied astrology at one point, but nothing made any real sense to me. Then I started studying with the JW’s and everything clicked, everything finally made sense to me, this is what I was looking for and I’ve never looked back since. I converted to one of JW, it has been the best decision of my life!!! I am thankful to God and his Son Jesus for leading me to you, I LOVE nothing more than talking about spiritual things. Since I have sparked your curiosity about the JW’s, I would encourage you to go straight to the source if you REALLY want to know a little bit about us, unfortunately there is a lot of misinformation out there about the JW’s. So here are two links to start with, that address the issues being discussed:

about the trinity: http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/index.htm

about the Jehovah’s Witnesses: http://www.watchtower.org/e/jt/index.htm

If there is any other issue you have a question about, don’t hesitate to contact me!

Agape-
Maribel

Many times when I have had on-line debates with people regarding Christianity, there are words like “truth”, “facts”, “faith”, etc. that require me to use Merriam-Webster’s (www.m-w.com) definition to make sure we are using a common definition.

You wouldn’t think that a word like “truth” needs to be defined between two people, but trust me (do I need to define “trust”?) not everybody has the same definition.

My pleasure Demian. By the way, I’m really enjoying your blog – you do some good work here.
One of your posts was regarding things written by men. That reminds me of a visit from the JWs. They tried to hand me an Awake! magazine. I tried to hand them something I had written about the NWT. The man refused. I asked why. He said, it was written by a man. Which should give you an idea of what they think of the Watch Tower’s literature.

@Ryan: It’s sad, you’re right, but we do have to start at the basis: What is truth? Francis Schaeffer called this a cultural apologetics.
…
@Van: Thank you very much for the kind words!
…
@Maribel: I’ll do my homework. I promise! Thank you for your good spirit.

Maribel…my dear Maribel…please understand that your story is almost like mine. I too felt everything “click” and saw all the answers that they showed me seemed to make sense. I was within mere months of being baptized as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and champing at the bit to do so.

Then things started to fall apart. I suffered a bout of depression and couldn’t make my monthly time quota, missed some meetings, and ended up losing my status as Unbaptized Publisher–and worse, no longer qualified for baptism at the upcoming convention. All because of arbitrary numbers. This led me to re-read my NWT, trying to see where in the Scriptures the Faithful and Discreet Slave had to keep up a set of arbitrary hours of witnessing…and I didn’t find anything there. So that set up an even bigger chain reaction of questions. Why are we urged to “test the Scriptures”, but only with authorized Watch Tower literature…? How can it be considered a legitimate test, if the only litmus you can use is what they allow? And why keep the story of the rich man and Lazarus when there is no Hell? But when I had the audacity to ask these, I was treated like I had just vomited on the elder’s suit. Things fell apart further.

Then one day, my husband, who was not a Christian at the time, came to me. The story is long, but suffice it to say, I saw the Holy Spirit (and I do mean THE Holy Spirit) enter into my husband and fill him with Truth. My most fervent prayer of three years was answered–but not at all in the way I thought would have been proper.

Then things REALLY “clicked”. When you see the Holy Spirit at work, it’s as obvious as a sunrise. You can’t subject it to any interpretation than the one that has been presented time and again in the Word.

My husband and I returned to the Greek texts, and it opened my eyes and sobered me. Maribel, please, I urge you to take up a course in Biblical Greek. Study the original Greek texts. Find a dozen books on it and compare them. Find an old Kingdom Interlinear (the “purple book”) and compare it with a modern-day NWT Interlinear (if they have one, I don’t remember). Just please, please, please don’t limit yourself to being spoon-fed what someone else tells you about Christ and the Word.

And why did they choose to start publishing TWO versions of the Watch Tower and Awake! magazines, anyways…?

–Denita

Denita, thank you for sharing your story.

Dear Denita:

I too appreciate you sharing your story, and I am so sorry you had that experience in a JW’s congregation? I will not give a defense or an excuse for what happened to you, I was not there and I don’t know all the details. The only thing I can say is that as a religious organization, we try to follow the pattern set in the scriptures. Early Christians formed congregations, if there were any disputes within a congregation regarding a particular matter, it was made known to the “governing body”, the Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem. A good example of this is ACTS CHAPTER 15.

It’s obvious to say that today, the elders are not perfect, and they can exercise bad judgment in some situations. If a brother or sister feels that is their case, they can follow the pattern set in the scriptures, and take their case up to the next level.

Now, about having a “quota” for preaching, that is simply NOT TRUE! The ONLY time you’ll have a quota is if YOU SIGN UP to volunteer a particular amount of hours. But if you are just a regular publisher, like me, than NO, there is not set hours to meet. In fact, I’ve gone months without reporting my time, not because I went months without preaching, but because I simply forget to hand in my report. And by the way, there is nothing dogmatic about reporting our activity, you won’t find that in scripture. Again, as a religious organization, with the daunting task of preaching the good news to all the nations, it’s done in an organized way. This is NOT ONLY done by going from door to door, there are many, many ways of preaching. Reporting our individual activities as well as other activities (for example, in 2008 how many got baptized, how many attended the memorial, how many new congregations were formed, etc, etc) is for statistic and logistic purposes ONLY. When Jesus sent 70 disciples to spread the good news, the 70 came back to him with a report, that report made Jesus rejoice!!!!! (LUKE CHAPTER 10) In the first century, when people would convert, in several occasions the Bible reports the exact number of how many people where baptized. Same now, every year, when we get our yearly report we see the fruits of our hard labor, and in those HUGE numbers we can see our little individual grain of sand in there. It really is a cause of joy to see Jesus, the head of the congregation, bless the work he commanded us to carry (Mat 28:19,20, Mat 24:14)

I don’t know why you got the impression that we can only “test the scriptures” with Watchtower literature ONLY. Is that what someone told you to do? I am an avid internet researcher.

“And why keep the story of the rich man and Lazarus when there is no Hell?” Sorry, I don’t understand your question??????

“And why did they choose to start publishing TWO versions of the Watch Tower and Awake! magazines, anyways…?” Pardon my ignorance, but what is TWO?

Now, I would like to ask you a couple of questions….

Who do you fellowship with? (Hebrews 10: 24, 25)

Who do you consider to be the “faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?
(Matthew 24:45)

How would you explain the meaning of the heavenly temple vision given to the prophet Ezequiel?

How would you explain the prophecies uttered by the prophet Daniel, which have relevancy in our day?

Do you look for “outside” guidance to help you understand these things? Or do you strictly rely on your own personal interpretations?

Believe it or not, we are all being “spoon-fed” in one way or another. I happen to trust the hand that feeds me.

Agape-
Maribel

@Maribl: Thanks for the thorough reply. Any thoughts Denita?

Ay-yi-yi…this is going to take a bit to digest, and my cup of coffee hasn’t kicked in yet…but I really appreciate the amiable debate this is blooming in to. My brain needed a workout!

I’m definitely going to reply, I just need a little time for my tired brain to kick in…I have a 3-month-old baby girl who still wakes up regularly at night. Praise God, that He, in His infinite wisdom and generosity, created COFFEE!

–Denita

I’m with you Denita, I have a 4 and 2 year old boys.

Blessed be those precious coffee beans!!!!!!!

Do JWs get brownie points for going door-to-door?

Trailer for PBS documentary KNOCKING.

Agape-
Maribel

@Maribel and Denita: I, too, so appreciate the “amiable debate this is blooming into” because I’m learning first hand so much. You can’t get that in a book. You ladies are impressing me. Thank you.

I too am reading with interest, having met and discussed a lot with a pair of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I can recommend Diane Wilson’s book, not so much for her writing style, but for the insights into the organisation and the psychology. To me JW’s religion seems like many other religions, only more extreme, more concentrated.

@Maribel: Thanks Maribel for the links. I’m looking forward to the documentary! Just so you know, I tweaked your comment where you placed those two JW links. Comments like that show up in my “pending” file cause spam filter can’t recognize if it’s legit or not. If you get the time, check out this page on how to create these links.

Well you didn’t ask me, but I’ll take a stab at your questions. I’m not sure why you’d ask these, but perhaps this will help in some way.
…
Who do you fellowship with? (Hebrews 10: 24, 25)
We only have true ‘fellowship’ with believers in Christ.
…
Who do you consider to be the “faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?
(Matthew 24:45)
Who do you say that servant is? The Watchtower of 1920 says it was C.T. Russell. But The Watchtower of 1927 says it is an organization. Interesting…
The wise and faithful servant that Jesus refers to is part of a parable that contrasts a faithful servant with an unfaithful one. He’s referring to anyone who would claim to follow Christ. Jesus will return to judge between the two after all the things mentioned in the chapter have happened. He has not returned, the sun has not been darkened, the moon hasn’t stop shining, the stars have not fallen from the heavens and the heavens have not been shaken. By the way, you need to read chapters 24 AND 25 together. Chapter 25 continues the end times account where Jesus returns to establish His kingdom on earth and there are two classes of people – sheep and goats; not Anointed Class and “other sheep”.
…
How would you explain the meaning of the heavenly temple vision given to the prophet Ezequiel? You mean Ezekiel?
The temple in Ezekiel’s vision is on the earth (40:2), not heaven. It’s a real temple. It will be built on the earth and Jesus will dwell in it (43:6-7).
…
How would you explain the prophecies uttered by the prophet Daniel, which have relevancy in our day?
Such as? That’s kind of a wide open question. Speaking of prophecy, how would you explain these dates:
1874 – Christ returned to power, The Watchtower, 1922
1914 – the overthrow of human government, Studies in the Scriptures, 1888
1925 – the return of Abram, Isaac, Jacob, Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920
1975 – The end of human history, Awake!, 1966

These are documented prophecies that didn’t happen. The Bible has something to say about false prophets.
…
Do you look for “outside” guidance to help you understand these things? Or do you strictly rely on your own personal interpretations? Believe it or not, we are all being “spoon-fed” in one way or another. I happen to trust the hand that feeds me.
Why do you trust them to spoon feed you? The Bible is clear enough for you to study on your own. If you read it IN CONTEXT, you would not come to the conclusions that they do. The Watch Tower literature picks and chooses verses to fit their theology. You need to get your own spoon and feed yourself.
…
The greatest question is WHO IS JESUS CHRIST? Does the scripture support that he was the angel Michael? No. Does the scripture support that He is Jehovah? Yes. When Thomas saw the risen Jesus in His resurrected body – the same body he died in, not a borrowed body – he said, “My Lord and My God.” (Jn 20:28) He was not exclaiming or blaspheming, he was declaring that Jesus is Jehovah God and his Lord. I have declared the same. If the Watch Tower Society is wrong about Jesus, then they are simply WRONG.
…
Read the scriptures for yourself. Don’t read the New World Translation, it is unreliable and has been changed many times since it was first published. Get yourself a KJV or even a NKJV. Personally, I read the ESV. I know some Greek and find that it is a reliable translation.
…
I’d also invite you to listen to what this Gilead Missionary found by studying the Bible. http://www.youtube.com/user/ExGileadMissionary

@Van, I take it you mean you’re answering Maribel’s questions? Just wanted to make sure.

Yes – all that writing and I don’t say who I’m writing to.

@Van…not a problem.

Mr. Edwards–WOW! You took the responses right out of my mouth (fingers?) and did a much better job than I would have done. Especially the Scripture concerning the “Faithful and Discreet Slave”.

Some of your questions remain unanswered, though, so if I may clarify…:

Concerning the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-30), Jesus explicitly describes the rich man as being in ongoing fiery torment after death. Why would He describe an event that, according to the NWT and other JW literature, doesn’t exist?

Maribel, if I may ask, do you live in America? I’m not sure if the Society is doing this with other language translations of the Awake! and Watch Tower, but here in the States the Governing Body decided that they would start publishing two versions of the magazines; one for Witnesses and another for those outside of the Organization. This decision was approved shortly before I left two years ago, and went into effect a few months later. Auspiciously, this was to “clean up” the magazines, removing the numbered paragraphs and study questions from one set of literature. But it seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through, and highly suspicious. What did it matter that the magazines had study questions in them…? Why go through the trouble of publishing two versions, when donation-dependent costs of publishing just the original versions were already such an issue? In fact, it was one of the things that made me uneasy, and led to my departing.

I also want to clarify that it wasn’t the behavior of the elder (or any others in the Kingdom Hall for that matter) that made me leave. Our personalities clashed right from the start. To be honest, I got along just fine with the other elders at the Kingdom Hall. In fact, I still count many of them as friends and they converse with me regularly whenever we see each other at the store. Some shun me, and others urge me to return. I see it for what it is, that they genuinely care and want me to return, and so I hold no ill will toward them as individuals. I just found much evidence that the Organization was running counter to Scripture. Why the recent decision to punish elders whose children choose to attend college? How can the Governing Body style itself as “mediator” to the Faithful and Discreet Slave and still look at Hebrews and 1 Timothy 2:5 without blushing? Why was Christ able to forgive sins, when only Jehovah Himself was sinned against? (Gen. 39:9, Ps. 51:4, 2 Sam. 12:13, among others…) For that matter, how is it that Christ Jesus even had such authority when, according to Isaiah 48:11, Jehovah “shares His glory with no-one”? According to Jesus, “Scripture can not be broken” (John 10:35), so how does one go about reconciling these things to what the Watch Tower says? And how do you reconcile the false prophecies the Governing Body has produced with what Jeremiah 28 and 29 have to say regarding false prophets? And if someone is a false prophet, how could they possibly measure up to the qualifications for Overseers listed in 1 Timothy 3? That passage alone would disqualify everyone in the Governing Body because of their false prophecies. And with that, how could you possibly trust the hand that feeds you…?

–Denita

I meant “some of Maribel’s questions”! Sorry…

–Denita

Hello Denita and Van!

I will be responding, not as quick as I would like to, I am working today and tomorrow, but I promise I’ll respond. Thanks!

Maribel,

It is quite obvious from your comments that you are passionate about Jehovah. I think this is the reason some of us are so passionate in our response and questions to you.

We can see in your heart a desire to please Jehovah and do what is right in His eyes. It is out of love and concern for your soul that we ask you these questions because what the WatchTower Society teaches is a false doctrine that will lead people to damnation.

The WTS teaches that Jesus’ second coming has already occurred and was an “invisible” return.

Insight, Volume 2 (pg 207)
“The Conclusion of the System of Things.” However, as Jesus Christ had foretold, the apostasy did not take in the entire body of Christians; the true, loyal ones were to be as “wheat” associated with “weeds.” After Christ’s presence begins, invisible, in spirit, and during “the conclusion of the system of things” then existing, a clear separation and demarcation was to be made evident. The “weeds,” “the sons of the wicked one,” were to be ‘collected out of the kingdom of the Son of man.’ This cleaning out of the true Christian congregation would leave a field of clean wheat; the false, imitation Christians would be outside the true Christian congregation. Whereas the weedlike ones would finally be pitched into “the fiery furnace,” the wheatlike ones would “shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” (Mt 13:24-30, 37-43) This definitely pointed to the concluding portion of the system of things under Satan’s wicked rule, preceding its destruction.

God’s Kingdom Comes to Power in the Midst of Its Enemies (pg 84)
Realizing this, we can better understand the meaning of what Jesus told his followers about his second presence. They had asked him: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” (Matthew 24:3) Jesus then described, for their benefit and ours, what would take place on earth when he would begin to rule in heaven. In this way, although the events in heaven would be invisible to human eyes, there would be visible proof that Christ was at last on the throne, taking action as king. It would be proof that the wicked system of things that has oppressed mankind for centuries had entered its “last days.” (2 Timothy 3:1) Although it was foretold that there would be ridiculers that would try to belittle the facts, yet the evidence would be clear.—2 Peter 3:3, 4.

However, this teaching runs counter to Jesus’ own words in Matthew 24:23-28.

“Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. Look! I have forewarned YOU. Therefore, if people say to YOU, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it. For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. (NWT)

Note: Jesus Himself states that anyone claiming He has returned and is hidden somewhere (‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’) is lying. Christ himself states that His return will be as obvious as lightning, it will not be invisible. As stated in the first chapter of Acts, Jesus’ return will be as visible as His ascension was.

Acts 1:10-11
And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, also, look! two men in white garments stood alongside them, and they said: “Men of Gal′i·lee, why do YOU stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from YOU into the sky will come thus in the same manner as YOU have beheld him going into the sky.” (NWT)

Scripture, even the WTS’s own NWT (as quoted above), counters the WTS’s teachings on Christ’s return. The WTS is lying about Christ having already returned and being an invisible guide to the WTS. Christ states in Matthew 24:24 “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.”

The WTS is misleading those it teaches.

It has lied regarding the date of Christ’s return (1874, 1910, 1914, 1918, 1925, 1975).

It has lied about who Jesus really is (Isaiah 9:6).

It has lied by twisting Scripture into meaning something contrary to subject being discussed (Acts 15:20 is referring to the Levitical law regarding eating blood, and has nothing to do with blood transfusions (Leviticus 3:17)).

If the blood is the life of something (Leviticus 17:11), Christ Himself states in John 15:13 (NWT) “No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends” (and the NWT’s notes state that the alternate reading for soul is life). This would allow for transfusions if the believer’s conscience allowed for it, but no institution has the power to make an extra-Biblical law regarding it.

Demian,

My apologies for turning a comment on your site into what would probably count as a blog post, but after coming to Christ through studying the Hebrew and Greek texts used to make the NWT (in order to open my wife’s eyes to the lies) and seeing how the WTS has twisted the original texts to “fit” their doctrine, I find it very difficult to stay silent.

Maribel,

My wife (Denita) and I are fervently praying that you would receive the courage to study Scripture without the blinders of the WTS’s teachings.

No one but Christ has 100% accurate doctrine since all but Him are fallen, but as John states in 1 John 5:16-17 “If anyone catches sight of his brother sinning a sin that does not incur death, he will ask, and he will give life to him, yes, to those not sinning so as to incur death. There is a sin that does incur death. It is concerning that sin that I do not tell him to make request.  All unrighteousness is sin; and yet there is a sin that does not incur death.” The doctrine of the WTS leads to sinning that incurs death, and we pray that you come to realize this.

Your brother in Christ,

-Eric

Thank you, Eric and Denita.
Maribel, if you do respond, please use an accepted bible translation, not the NWT, and do not use Watchtower literature.

Van-
why is the NWT not “an accepted bible translation”?

what is the standard of which to measure by?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_BeDuhn

Maribel,

An “acceptable” bible translation is one that actually follows the rules of a language when translating the original texts.

If you would look through a Kingdom Interlinear Translation (the WTS’s own Greek-English Interlinear, also known as the KIT or the “Purple Book” for the original or the “Blue Book” for the updated version), you would see quite clearly that the translators did not follow the same rules for translating throughout the whole text.

The majority of the words in brackets [] contained within the NWT (where the NWT notes claim the word is “implied” in the original text) are not in the text, nor implied. A quick primer in Greek can show this.

Most Kingdom Halls know nothing about the KIT because the WTS quietly “shelved” the book after too many people saw the errors in the NWT.

There are several sources on where you can get a copy of the KIT if your Kingdom Hall does not have a copy:
http://www.google.com/products?rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS314US315&sourceid=chrome&q=kingdom%20interlinear%20translation&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wf

Please take the time to try to locate this book and study for yourself. Having a Greek-English Lexicon/dictionary may come in handy as well.

@All: I know this has nothing to do with the current debate, but I thought it was funny that last night I had a dream that the JW’s removed Ephesians from the Bible. Why Ephesians, I don’t know. So goes dreams.

Maribel,

If you are unable to locate a copy of the KIT, there is another thing you can do.

The NWT used the Wescott-Hort text from 1881 for the Greek text. There are several free software packages that include the text.

Xiphos (xiphos.org) is one of these. With Xiphos you can download several different Greek-English lexicons to use while studying the text.

If you do not want to install any software, you can go to the Logos Bible webpage: http://bible.logos.com/#q=&ref=Mt%201&ver=WESTCOTT&tab=home&content=. and view the text as well.

All who follow Christ should take the time and test Scripture like the Boreans (Acts 17) to make sure the teachings reflect the actual Scriptures.

Your brother in Christ,

-Eric

Sorry, but I WILL use the NWT, and other translations as well. You cannot dictate to me what is and is not an “acceptable” Bible translation. The NWT has withstood the scrutiny of highly respectable Bible scholars. Is not a “popular” Bible for sure, because it does not support a “popular” belief. BTW – all Bible translations are bias. I recommend a book titled “Truth in Translation” by Jason BeDuhn. He is a respected scholar which examines several translations, and is critical of ALL of them. Again, I will choose whatever translation I please. BTW – I don’t ONLY use the NWT. If the owner of this blog agrees, than I will continue the debate. If not, I will not consider this a fair debate and I won’t continue to make my case.

Thanks
Maribel

Maribel,

While I personally do not think the NWT is a very accurate translation after looking at the Greek texts, I will admit that I am not a professional when it comes to Greek. Honestly, the battle of NWT vs. other translations really is not all that important in this debate. It is the Bible translation you are comfortable with and as you can see in my earlier comments, I have been quoting from the NWT.

There are many sections in the NWT where there are no problems with the translation, and yes, I agree with you and Mr. BeDuhn that ALL translations of the Bible are lacking and biased to some degree or another.

I apologize if you have found my comments in any way attacking you, that has never been my point. What I was trying to get at is the fact that the WTS has a long history of lying to protect their doctrine.

All I am asking is that you test what Scripture says versus what you are being taught. This is what I ask of myself and anyone following Christ. To do this requires looking at the Bible as a whole and using it as the lens to interpret passages of Scripture instead of using “sound-bites” from Scripture. The Bible paints the picture of Jehovah’s revelation of Himself to us, which culminates in the redemptive work of Christ.

If you are willing to continue this debate, and I sincerely hope you are, Denita and I look forward to your answers to the questions that have been posed to you.

Sincerely,

Your brother in Christ,

-Eric

Well, said Eric.

Also, here’s a comprehensive [read: long] review of BeDuhn’s book.

Van H. Edwards,

Actually, if this comment thread is a debate then Maribel is absolutely in the right to use the NWT and WTS publications. They are the publications that support her position.

In a debate among creationists and evolutionists would you deny the evolutionists the right to use Darwin’s observations in the debate?

If Maribel cannot use the NWT or the WTS literature, then we are forbidden from using the KJV (or version of her choosing) or any quotes from pastors or theologians who support our positions.

A fair debate allows information to be presented from both sides of the argument.

Your brother in Christ,

-Eric

Thank you Eric!

I will gladly continue to make my case. Please bare with me

Maribel, I agree with Eric – get a copy of the Kingdom Interlinear and see for yourself. You said you would use “other translations”; why not just use other translations instead of the NWT? Doesn’t the Watch Tower Society accept the KJV?
…
I don’t know that I agree with the idea that ALL translations have a bias. Even if that’s true, it’s not an excuse for smuggling your own theology into the translation – which is what the NWT translation team did. What’s obvious is that the Hebrew and Greek is not biased and we can go back and verify the translation. Many people have done that and have found the NWT wanting.
http://www.ankerberg.org/Articles/theological-dictionary/TD0705W4.htm
…
Did you know that of the translation team for the NWT, only one had any training in Biblical Greek or Hebrew, but dropped out before he completed it (Franz)?
…
Did you know that whenever the word “proskuneo” is used of God it is translated as worship, but in reference to Jesus it is translated as “do obeisance” every time? (Except for when they missed one in Hebrews 1:6, but after 1961, they “corrected” it.)
…
Did you know that in Colossian 1:16-17, the word “other” was inserted 4 times when the word does not show up in the Greek? Now THAT’S bias.
…
In John 14:14, the NWT omits the word “me” when Jesus says that his disciples could ask anything in his name. Why?
http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/New_World_Translation/john_1414.htm
…
The word Jehovah does not appear in the NT. Yet “kurios” is translated as Jehovah when ever an OT reference is made, when it ALWAYS means Lord. In Romans 10, Paul is clearly talking about the Lord Jesus Christ. In verse 9 he writes that if you confess that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. In verse 13, he reiterates that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. But the NWT translates it as Jehovah, confusing who this Lord is. Translated correctly, it’s clear that Jesus is Lord and the only Savior.
…
Speaking of Savior, Isaiah 43:11 says that there is no other Savior but Jehovah God. Yet all through out the NT, Jesus is called Savior. In fact, if you look at the book of Titus, Paul uses the word “Savior 6 times – 3 for the Father, 3 for Jesus. Jesus must somehow BE Jehovah.
…

Van-
Like I’ve stated, I will choose the translations I choose to make my case. If you don’t like it, you don’t have to be a part of this debate. You can say whatever you want about the NWT, it is a reputable translation. Just because you don’t like it does not change that fact. “Smuggling” huh???? Again, all translation are bias, you don’t seem to have a problem with the KJV taking out God’s personal name almost 7000 times. Or what about 1John 5:7??? Van, you obviously have your resentments against the JW’s. But that’s not what this debate is about, this debate is not about the JW’s or about the NWT, it’s about is Jesus God Almighty or God’s Son and appointed King. So, I will make an effort to answer as many questions asked to me, but I will also try to keep the debate ON TOPIC, so sorry if I don’t get to answer every single question. I’ll reiterate…. If you don’t like it, you don’t have to participate.

I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses like Maribel.

First of all, I know that many think that the NWT is not an accurate translation like many other Bibles. I have to disagree. If you truly believe that because of a few verses (such as John 1:1; 8:58; Colossians 1:16-17; Hebrews 1:8) then you are missing the reliability of the rest of the text. There are hundreds of thousands of verses in the Bible. As one scholar put it, only 0.01% of the text was “changed” in the NWT. The rest of it is accurate. This man is not one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and actually argues against them. His name is Alan(sp?) Duthie.

Those verses that you claim are changed have very good reason for it. Take for example John 1:1. “En arche en ho logos, kai ho logos in pros ton theon, kai theos en ho logos.” [In the beginning the was the word, and the words was toward the God and god was the word."

Why do Jehovah's Witnesses add an "a" to John 1:1? Note the phrase in the second clause, "and the word was with God". The last three words are "pros ton theon" or, "toward (pros) the (ton) God (theon)". In this sentence, the word for God (theon) has the definite article (the) in front of it. This signifies God Almighty.

In the third clause, "and god was the word", the first three words read, "kai theos en" or, "and god was". The second occurrence of "god" does not have the definite article "the" in front of it. Therefore, in most cases but not all, we have to add an indefinite article, "a" or "an". How do we know if we should add one of these words? Remember: Koine Greek DID NOT have words for "a" or "an". Therefore, when you read those words in your English Bible, they are ALWAYS additions. I do not criticize your chosen Bible translation for the hundreds of a's and an's added to it.

Again, though, how do we know to add "a" and "an" to the third clause of John 1:1?

The "Journal of Biblical Literature" answers this. It says, Expressions "with an anarthrous [no article] predicate preceding the verb, are primarily qualitative in meaning” and then highlights this about John 1:1c: “The qualitative force of the predicate is so prominent that the noun [theos] cannot be regarded as definite.” Therefore, John 1:1 is not saying WHAT the Word is but giving his qualities, namely that he is “divine,” “godlike,” or “a god,” but not God Almighty. That is why John L. McKenzie said that “John 1:1 should rigorously be translated…’the word was a divine being.” This fully captures the essence of John 1:1c, that Christ was divine.

For an in-depth discussion of John 8:58, see my blog: http://myaiua.blogspot.com/2009/01/what-aboutjohn-858_27.html

Now, Colossians 1:16-17 is a little harder to explain. We need to understand that in the times of Paul and the other Apostles, the word “other” was discarded as somewhat useless. It was implied in speech by the sentence structure of the statement made. In English, “other” is necessary.

Take for example this Scripture: “In answer Peter and the [other] apostles said: ‘We must obey God as ruler rather than men.’” The brackets around the word “other” in the sentence means that it was added. The NWT is not the only Bible that does this. Bibles such as NIV, KJV, and NKJV all add the word “other” at Acts 5:29. The NASB, ESV, and CEV do not. It is the choice of the translators to add the implied “other” or not. None of the translations are to be faulted for whichever course they choose.

In the end, the NWT emerges as the most accurate of translations in Col. 1:16-17 when they add the implied “other” in those Scriptures. Why? The sentence structure of Col. 1:16-17 shows that “other” is implied. So, Col. 1:16-17 does not “add words” at all.

With Hebrews 1:8, many people say that the NWT changes the Scripture by putting “God is your throne forever and ever” and that all the other translations are right that say “Your throne, O God is forever and ever.”

Which translation is right? Well, either one. However, it should be shown that there is no word for “O” in Koine Greek. So when they put Your throne, O God” they are adding a word. What makes the translation of Hebrews 1:8 so difficult is where the Greek word “estin” [is] goes. Should it go before or after “throne”? “Your throne is God” or “God is your throne”? That is up to the translators. When people criticize the NWT by saying we “change” the word order in that verse, critics are being blatantly dishonest. They know that it is not possible to know how the Scripture should be translated. If they can be dishonest here because of their hatred of JW’s and the NWT, how can we trust what else they say?

One thing that people criticize about the NWT that I do not appreciate is our choice of translating Zechariah 12:10. God is speaking prophetically of the Messiah. In the NKJV it says, “they will look on Me whom they pierced.” If this is the correct translation then God is saying that He will be pierced. However, the NWT translates it this way: “they will certainly look to the One whom they pierced.” Which one is right?

In the original Hebrew, word can be translated more the one way. It can be translated “me” or “the one” or “him”. All those ways are valid. Some scholars prefer “me” and some “the one”. Is there possibly a way for us to know how Zech. 12:10 should be translated? Yes! And this source is much, much, much, much, much more authoritative then any modern scholar. In fact, I find myself disgusted because anyone who argues for “me whom they pierced” is actually contradicting this authoritative source! Who is this source! The Apostle John himself in the Bible! He knew through THE HOLY SPIRIT how this verse should be translated. In fact, he translated it for us. In John 19:38 he put “And, again, a different scripture says: ‘They will look to the One whom they pierced.’” He is obviously referencing Zech. 12:10. I am going to put much more stock behind a Bible writer then any scholar or translator.

When it gets right down to it, the NWT is not inaccurate or blatantly lying to take away from the “deity” of Christ.

If you want to look at many Scriptures that disprove the deity of Christ, go to my blog at “http://myaiua.blogspot.com/2008/12/bible-does-not-teach-trinity_21.html”

I hope that this has been somewhat enlightening and makes you stop and think before criticizing a Bible translation. Remember, many times there is more then one way to translate a Bible verse. It is up to the translator to choose which way it should be translated. If the translator believes in the deity of Christ, they will translate those verses one way and if they do not believe in the deity of Christ, they are perfectly in their rights to translate those verses another way. No one should be low and petty enough to criticize that. In fact, if you want to see dishonest translation, compare Philippians 2:6 in many translations. I will start you off by telling you that the NASB and ESV are the accurate translations. Any other way that people translate that verse, including the NIV, NLT, and the HCSB are indeed dishonest. At least the NLT admits what they did by putting the true rendering in a footnote. I encourage you to check that out before passing judgment. So remember, before you say anything bad about the NWT remember Zech. 12:10 and Philippians 2:6 before you say that your Bible translation is better.

Maribel, you can order the KIT from your KH, that is where I got mine about six months ago. I study if often. In fact, I cannot remember if the Emphatic Diaglott is still an interlinear that you can order through the Society but if it is I encourage you to order it as well.

Demian, I was going to link to BeDuhn’s book, too! Thanks for doing it for me! Also, if I remember correctly, “Tetregrammaton.org” gave BeDuhn’s book a pretty good review. In fact, I do, too. I own the book.

Eric, I read the Bible as a whole all the time. In fact, I read the Bible six times before I was twenty-one. I do study a lot from sources outside the WTS. While I will admit that I put more stock in what the WTS says, this does not lead me to disregard what other sources say. I know nearly all the arguments against the NWT and the Jehovah’s Witnesses, probably many more then anyone else on here. I am not trying to be arrogant or anything, either. I am just admitting a fact. And whenever anyone shows me a new point against the Witnesses that I did not know, I truly take it into account. I then study that point profusely and always see the logic for their side but also why it is not an effective argument against my beliefs. I find those good reinforcements to my faith in Jehovah as the only, true God, and Jesus as my own Lord and personal Savior. I love them both dearly. So, please don’t start to say that I need to study outside the WTS and be like the Boreans, because I always, always research everything the WTS says. Just like before I was a JW…

Thank you Brother Shawn for your input, there seems to be a misconception that JW’s are urged to test the scriptures with WTS literature only. That’s just insane. As I’ve stated before, I am an avid researcher and have the advantage of being bilingual in Spanish which really comes in handy in understanding the structure of a different language. Here is another link to another JW blogger, she usually references outside sources:
http://putawaythatmeat.blogspot.com/

Anyway, I do plan on addressing the issue at hand, so, to be continued…..

Replying to Van’s copy-and-paste post:

Van, did you know that an ex-JW who isn’t very fond of them supposedly revealed the names of the translators? It is not verifiable. To automatically assume that Franz was telling the truth is being biased. Funny how you claim that the NWT is biased when you yourself are.

Did you know that most modern Bible translations render the word “proskuneo” worship in reference to God and Jesus but not when it is referencing someone else. The word “proskuneo” has more then one meaning. Worship did not carry the same meaning today as it did back in Bible times or even in KJV times. That is why David is said to be worshiped in the NWT. Anyone who says “proskuneo” should be rendered worship for Jesus but not others is biased in the other direction. To get onto JW’s is obviously hypocritical.

I have already replied to Colossians 1:16-17.

Why does the NWT omit the “me” from John 14:14? Well, there are many different manuscripts out there. Did you know that the majority of them are not NU-Text’s, the only text’s the contain the “me” at John 14:14?

Also, the most reliable manuscripts do not contain the “me” in John 14:14. In fact, it is wrong to attack only the NWT for not including this. Why? Neither the WNT, KJV, NKJV, ASV, YLT, Darby, WWE, or 21KJV add them. There are also many other versions that do not.

The NWT does not rely on some manuscripts and then switch to others when it is convenient. Evidently, many other modern translations do that.

Last, Isaiah 43:11 does say that there is no Savior but Jehovah. However, is this chapter speaking to everyone? No. It is speaking to Israel. To Israel Jehovah is the only Savior.

However, Jehovah has given Jesus that title in reference to the entire world because he is savior of the world.

The Bible also says that Jehovah is the only judge. But the Bible also says that Jesus is judge. Does this mean the Trinity is right or that the Bible contradicts itself? No. Why? Because the Bible says that God gave Jesus the right to judge. Acts 17:31 says that God appointed Jesus as judge.

Therefore, if the Bible says that Jehovah is the only savior and then later Jesus is called Savior then that means that Jehovah gave him that title later just like with Jesus Christ as one.

As one of Jehovah’s Witnesses I hold to the Sheva that Jesus Christ held to: “The Lord our God, the Lord is one”, not three.-Deuteronomy 6:4; Mark 12:29

Shawn,

I was not necessarily stating that you had to study “outside the WTS”, what I was stating was that anyone following Christ should hold any teaching they receive from others to the Scriptures to see if the teachings are true to Jehovah’s Word.

Maribel,

As to the “misconception that JW’s are urged to test the scriptures with WTS literature only”, your KHs must be much different from those in Central Texas, because that is exactly what was taught at the KHs my wife went to. JWs looking outside of the WTS publications were given a stern warning if an elder or the Circuit Overseer found out, with veiled threats of dis-fellowshiping if the behavior continued.

This behavior occurred in two different KHs and at a District Convention, so it cannot be just an isolated KH.

Shawn,

Back to the debate, kai theos (without the definitive article) occurs in Mark 12:26 and 1 Corinthians 1:3, both in reference to the Father. Therefore the WTS John 1:1 argument loses some of its steam.

Also, since the NT authors often quote from the LXX we find kai theos (without the definitive article) in several locations there are well: Exodus 3:6, Exodus 3:15, Exodus 3:16, Exodus 4:5 Exodus 29:46, 1 Samuel 2:3 to cite a few examples.

None if this even looks into the many additional passages of kai theon, kai theous or kai theou (without the definitive article).

Also, heading back to the debate on who Jesus is:

How do you reconcile Isaiah 9:6 referring to Christ when there is only one Everlasting Father?

How do you reconcile Christ receiving Glory that should only go to the Father (salvation, etc.) when in Isaiah 42:8 Jehovah states the He will not give His glory to anyone else?

How do you reconcile the statement of Jesus in John 10:16-18 when he states that he will take up his life again?

How do you reconcile that ego eimi (ἐγὼ εἰμί) at the end of John 8:58 is properly translated “I am” not as the NWT translated it as “I have been”? The same phrase is found in many passages in scripture: From Genesis 17:1 in the LXX to Revelation 22:16 in the WHM, and is always translated as “I am”.

The Jewish population had very strict rules for who could be stoned. Blasphemy is the only law that could have possibly been the one broken by Christ in this section of scripture. The only phrase that could have been taken as blasphemous is the “I am” phrase, in reference to the “I AM” in Exodus 3:14. If Christ was not referencing the “I AM” of Exodus 3:14, what grounds did the Jews have to stone him?

I sincerely look forward to your response.

How do you reconcile Christ receiving Glory that should only go to the Father (salvation, etc.) when in Isaiah 42:8 Jehovah states the He will not give His glory to anyone else?
——————-
I do not know of any instance where Jesus is said to have the glory of God. Please give me one where it says that Jesus is given God’s glory. Jesus accepting a title is in no way detracting from God’s glory.
——————-
——————-
How do you reconcile Isaiah 9:6 referring to Christ when there is only one Everlasting Father?
——————-
Jesus is called our Everlasting Father because he is the Chief Agent of Life. Also, he saved us from our sins by his death. Other people are called Father in the Bible including Satan the Devil. (John 8:44) Abraham is also called a Father. (Romans 4:12) It is not a big stretch to call others besides Jehovah father. But only Jehovah is THE Father.
——————-
——————-
Read my blog on John 8:58 “http://myaiua.blogspot.com/2009/01/what-aboutjohn-858_27.html. One thing that I failed to mention about “ego eimi” is that some Bible translations in other places besides John 8:58 translate it differently. For example, the NLT translates it “I have been” (unfortunately I cannot remember the exact verse, forgive me).
——————-

To answer your other question about John 1:1 versus Mark 12:26; 1 Corinthians 1:3:

In Mark 12:26, Mark writes “ho theos” of Abraham and then he says “And God of Isaac…God of Jacob”. There is no point for John to add the “ho” before “theos” in the other instances because it has been established that the Father is the one who is being spoken of.

The same goes for 1 Corinthians 1:3. Paul already establishes who he is speaking of when he says God so he doesn’t have to add the definite article.

This will be my last post!

In response to the NWT adding or taking away words from the NT, I want to know this: How come in many instances when the holy spirit is being spoken of, Jesus (or any other person who speaks of the spirit) sometimes does not use the definite article before holy spirit and yet Bible translators ALWAYS put the definite article before holy spirit, even when it is not found in the text? I will answer that: They believe that the holy spirit is the third person of the Trinity and if they do not add the definite article before holy spirit, that will take away from his personhood. Every translation on the market that I have seen (I own thirty-two different translations) adds the definite article before holy spirit. So, stop picking on the NWT, please.
Also, answer the point I brought up about Zechariah 12:10 and Philippians 2:6 before you go on the offensive, please.

Shawn,

In response to the NLT and ego eimi (ἐγὼ εἰμί), the closest possible passages I can find are Matthew 28:18 (Jesus came and told his disciples, “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth.) but the Greek is και προσελθων ο ιησους ελαλησεν αυτοις λεγων εδοθη μοι πασα εξουσια εν ουρανω και επι [της] γης (no ἐγὼ εἰμί) or Acts 20:26 (I declare today that I have been faithful. If anyone suffers eternal death, it’s not my fault) but the Greek is διοτι μαρτυρομαι υμιν εν τη σημερον ημερα οτι καθαρος ειμι απο του αιματος παντων (again no ἐγὼ εἰμί). Please correct me if you find the passage you were talking about.

As to Zechariah 12:10, I do not know much about the sentence construction of Hebrew or Aramaic. I never claimed to be an expert, and I am willing to admit where my knowledge is weak.

As to Philippians 2:6, μορφή, ῆς, ἡ) is form, external appearance. But what is Jehovah’s physical appearance? Jehovah is Spirit (John 4:24), therefore what appearance/form could Jesus have taken but that of Jehovah’s Spirit?

As to Isaiah 43:11, Jehovah may have only been speaking to Israel in this passage, but in Isaiah 45:21-22 He states the same thing speaking to “all YOU [at the] ends of the earth” (NWT), that is… everyone. Isaiah 45 is speaking to Cyrus and what Jehovah is using Him for, not Israel.

Further response to Isaiah 9:6: Everlasting is an adjective used in the OT for Jehovah and His works ONLY.

As to the Holy Spirit, if it is Jehovah’s active force, how can it be lied to (Acts 5:3, where you will also find that pesky article: τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον [both spirit and holy are neuter in Greek and the article is neuter and gives you The Holy Spirit, not Holy Spirit])?

Shawn, it is refreshing to hear you say that you have no hesitation in searching 32 translations. Having more facts can be a good thing. I also am unsatisfied with just looking at one translation which is why my Bible collection is at least as large as yours. It is rare where we live (actually non-existent) to see a JW willing to look at other translations. As I stated in an earlier post, the JWs in Central Texas consider any translation outside the NWT to be apostate and should never be referenced (this is taught in the KHs out here).

If your comment is true, that it was your last, I hope you have come away from this conversation with at least something to “chew” on. I know I have.

Maybe one day we will meet face to face and can discuss things further over coffee, or whatever your favorite beverage might be… my treat.

Where are you from in Texas? I am from North Central Texas. Around Dallas.

When I said that this would be my last post I meant last in the succession of three that I made after Maribel’s. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

We live out in the Highland Lakes area. We are currently recovering from that wild storm that blew through on Wednesday. Our house got pelted by racquetball sized hail that made the west side of the house look like someone took a shotgun to it.

Shows the power of Jehovah though, while we had broken windows, it was only the outer panes. Apparently Jehovah said “this far, but no further”, for which I praise Him!

I must sign off for the night now because I have promised Wii time with my son.

–Numbers 6:24-28

Sincerely,

-Eric

OK, now that my boys are asleep, my husband too:) I will try to continue my case, not as orderly as I would like to, so pardon if I jump from one thing to another, but I will try to make as much sense as possible.

I stated earlier that we are all being “spoon fed” in one way or another, some more than others, some directly, some indirectly. If you don’t think you are, well than I commend you for completely relying on your own interpretation of the Bible without referencing any kind of secular guidance. And I commend you for getting it right the first time. I on the other hand am like the Ethiopian eunuch – Acts 8:

30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

31″How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. (NIV)

So, I’m humble enough to recognize that I do need help and guidance to understand the scriptures and that I do trust the hand that feeds me. As one of JW I feel blessed to be part of a worldwide brotherhood completely united in “one faith” (Ephesians 4:5). Denita, I asked you who do you fellowship with? I should have been more specific to ask, what church do you meet at now? The only reason why I ask that is to make my point about being “fed”. Who is the person or pastor giving the sermon? One more thing I would like to clear up about JW’s being accused of being “false prophets”, Shawn posted a blog about that not too long ago. I’m in total agreement with his post, so here is the link if you care to read it: http://myaiua.blogspot.com/2009/02/are-jehovahs-witnesses-false-prophets_20.html

Now, is Jesus God Almighty, Jehovah?

on this post I will only address John 1:1, I’ll address more later.

is the NWT the only Bible that renders it “a god”?

1808: “and the word was a god.” The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text.

1864: “and a god was the word.” The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson.

1928: “and the Word was a divine being.” La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel.

1935: “and the Word was divine.” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.

1946: “and of a divine kind was the Word.” Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme.

1958: “and the Word was a God.” The New Testament, by James L. Tomanek.

1975: “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz.

1978: “and godlike kind was the Logos.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider.

Mr. BeDuhn in his book “truth in translation” agrees (as do many Bible scholars) that this is the proper rendering, because it’s clear that the second the•os’ in John 1:1 highlights the QUALITY of the Word.

There are many Bible passages with the same or similar sentence structure as in John 1:1 where the Bible translator has to decide weather or not to insert the indefinite article “a” in accordance with the context. Here are just two examples: (in Koine Greek there is no indefinite article)

John 8:44 “YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was “a” manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is “a” liar and the father of [the lie]”.

Interestingly, about the book “truth in translation”, in Amazon.com a Greek person reviewed the book, and this is what he said:

By Basileios Tsialas
I am Greek, I have been raised in Greece, I have studied Classical Greek for two years in high school (Classical Greek is much more complicated than koine, or Common Greek) and I have been studding the original Greek text of the Bible for about 10 years. Having this background, I responsibly say that this book presents quite right, well documented and reliable linguistic information. Yes, its writer must be considered adequate as regards his knowledge of the Biblical Greek. So, this book sheds plenty of light about subjects of whitch the common English reader has no idea. For example: English readers often claim that NW is false in Jonh 1:1. Trinitarians in Greece have never used this specific verse to claim that the New World Translation (NW) is wrong, since all the Orthodox versions read actually the same with the greek version of the NW. And this happens because the wording of this verse is very clear for the Greek reader, and there is no place for debate. I am sorry to say this, but for a Greek it is rediculus to debate on John 1:1.

Of course, many will be disappointed by BeDunh because he proves that many of the famous Bible versions are inaccurate and mislead their readers. But face the facts! What matters is not what translators say but what Bible says!
http://www.amazon.com/review/R3E9J7CCXLY4W9/ref=cm_aya_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0761825568#wasThisHelpful

OK, I gotta go to bed now… to be continued.

Demian – I think my post is “pending”, sorry for not posting the links correctly.

Marbiel: Don’t worry about it. I got it out. March on good soldiers.

Demian – forgive me for what I’m about to do. I’ve been fulfilling my obligations as father, employee and elder. I’ve tried to catch up on some of the posts here and answer questions posed. I may be duplicating some answers already made by Eric, so folks, I hope you will excuse that as well.
What follows are several groups of answers that go back several posts.
So thanks – and sorry.

Wow! A lot of stuff to wade through here. Let’s see if I can take a stab at some of it…
…
Maribel, I’m sorry to tell you but ‘Jehovah’ does not appear in the scriptures. If you go to the Hebrew text, you have YHWH. Jehovah is a combined word where the vowels of Adonai were inserted into YHWH, resulting in Yahowah, or Jehovah. This “personal name” does not appear in the Hebrew or Greek texts. Can you perhaps produce some evidence that the name of Jehovah was replaced with YHWH?
…
I don’t follow what you are asking about 1 John 5:7.
…
Maribel, I have no resentment of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I don’t think you can judge my character or motives based on comments to a blog. I hope you don’t think I’m arguing just to argue. I love each and every JW who comes to my door enough to try to share the Truth with them. I do however resent the so-called scholarship of the NWT. I don’t make any bones about that.
…
Shawn, welcome. Are you saying that I should ignore the translation of a few verses and simply trust the rest of the NWT? It’s interesting to me that the “changed” verses you refer to almost always have something to do with the person of Jesus Christ, no matter the percentage. It sounds like you are saying that I can trust 99.9% of the NWT. Sorry, I don’t like those odds.
…
Shawn, John 1:1. Two things.
First, why do you skip the clear meaning of the beginning of the verse? “In the beginning was the Word.” What does that mean but that while the beginning was occurring, the Word already was. He was NOT created. This corresponds with John 1:3 which says that “all things came into existence through Him, and apart from him nothing not even one thing came into existence.”(NWT) If “all things” means “all things” then Jesus could not have created himself. Yet if He created all things, then Jesus must somehow be THE Creator.
Second, regarding the articles or lack of: I agree that in Greek “the word was with God” includes a definite article. It’s there, but we don’t need to say “the God” because we understand that it’s God Almighty. It is however necessary in the Greek because ‘pros’ (toward or with) indicates fellowship and the Word had a personal fellowship with or within THE GOD. Plus, ‘ton theon’ is in the accusative tense – meaning it is the object of the phrase. In the third phrase (ho logos en theos), both ‘word’ and ‘God’ are in the nominative which shows EQUALITY.
You are also correct that Greek has no indefinite article. But that’s no reason to add it in. Plus, why would the translators assume an indefinite article? Why not assume a definite (the)?
If you follow the rule and add the indefinite article before ‘theos’ where it doesn’t appear, then you get something like this:
“Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called sons of a god.” Matt 5:9
“And the favor of a god was upon Him” Luke 2:40
“Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from a god.” John 3:20
“For the wrath of a god is revealed from heaven.” Romans 1:18
…
Let’s look at some other verses in the NWT where we have ‘theos’ with an article and again without in the same sentence. How do they translate them?
- “Jesus, knowing … that he came forth from God (theou) and was going to God (ton theon)” John 13:3
- “although they knew God (ton theon), they did not glorify him as God (theon).” Romans 1:21
- “how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God (to theo), cleanse our consciences from dead works that we may render sacred service to [the] living God (theo)?” Hebrews 9:14
Why didn’t they translate consistently? They even added a [the] in brackets where NO ARTICLE is shown?
Again I ask, why assume an indefinite article in John 1:1?
…
The NWT translation of John 1:1 creates another dilemma. According to John 17:3, Jesus calls the Father “the only true God”. That means all other gods are not true. So if there is only one true God, then what type of “god” is Jesus? A true God or a false god?
…
Shawn, I see you read the Journal of Biblical Literature. Did you read the entire article by Philip B. Harner from 1973, Vol 92 of the Journal? Or did you only copy the text directly from “Should You Believe In the Trinity?”? Because Harner goes on to say:
“the clause could be translated, ‘the same nature as God.’ This would be one way of representing John’s thought, which is, as I understand it, that ho logos ["the word"], no less than ho theos ["the God"], had the nature of theos.”
http://www.watchman.org/jw/highlght.htm
Let’s be honest with our sources and let them speak correctly.
…
By the way, you should track down every source the Watch Tower uses for “Should You Believe In the Trinity?”. I think you will find that almost every single one is taken out of context.
…
Shawn, About Colossians 1:16-17. Are you serious? The word other is “discarded or somewhat useless?” Where do you get that, because you are absolutely wrong. They have a word for it in Greek – ‘allos’. 57 times it is translated as “another” and 37 times it is translated as “other”. When Jesus says he has “other sheep”, that’s the word ‘allos’. If Paul had wanted to say that Jesus created all ‘other’ things, there’s a word he would have used. Once again, if Jesus created ALL THINGS, then he could not have created Himself. He is THE CREATOR.
…
Shawn, Regarding Hebrews 1:8, you are disregarding context. What is Hebrews 1 about? It is about the superiority of Jesus Christ over the prophets (v1-4) and over the angels (1:5-2:18). In verse 5 he says ‘which of the angels has he ever called son’ and then in verse 6 he says that all the angels worship (prosekeno) him. Verse 7 is a contrast with verse 8. In verse 7 the angels are said to be ministers and flame of fire. The writer starts verse 8 with “But”, because it’s a contrast with verse 7. So how is the writer saying that Jesus is different than the angels. (1) “God is your throne forever” or (2) “Your throne O God is forever and ever”? Well, wouldn’t God be the throne of the angels also? It makes more sense that it’s option 2 and it is said of Jesus, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever”. By the way, the writer is quoting Psalm 45:6 which says, “Your throne, O God is forever and ever” Of course the NWT changes that also so you can’t trace it back. Check it in all your other translations.
…
I disagree with your statement that it’s not possible to know how the scriptures should be translated. It’s called context and the NWT has a tendency to ignore it.
…
Shawn, regarding Zech 12:10. I think you have the wrong reference, it’s John 19:37 not 38. Nevertheless, it does indeed say, “they will look on him whom they have pierced.” And Revelation 1:7 confirms that it is Jesus who was pierced. But there’s a big problem with your ‘source’. The apostle John wrote his Gospel AFTER Zechariah wrote his book. John doesn’t dictate how Zechariah wrote it. I don’t disagree that he’s referencing it, but he’s not deciding how it’s translated in Zechariah.
Regardless of the NWT or your reasons, the majority of Hebrew sources (the Septuagint, the Old Latin, the Syriac Peshitta, the Aramaic Targums) all agree that it should be “they will look on Me”.
Also, in Zechariah 12, Jehovah God is talking in the first person. Jehovah has a beef with Jerusalem and it’s between God and Jerusalem. They have wounded Him, not a third party. So when you say there are two ways to translate it, why choose a way that goes against the rest of the context UNLESS it is to go away from God saying that He would be the one who was pierced?
…
Shawn, if the scripture were translated word-for-word, IN CONTEXT and in light of the historical data, it would be clear that Jesus is God. The Watch Tower Society has purposely translated John 8:58 to make Jesus say that “before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” The words in the Greek are ‘ego eimi’ – which is present tense and translated as I AM. It was a very clear reference to the Greek Old Testament rendering of Exodus 3:14, which Jesus and the Pharisees had available to them. In that passage, Jehovah calls Himself, “I AM”. This is why the Pharisees picked up stones to stone Jesus (John 8:59), because they thought He was blaspheming. The NWT alters both Exodus and John texts to draw away from this conclusion. “ego eimi” is a simple present tense – “I AM”. Yet the NWT has tried to call it everything but that so that they can translate it as “I have been” – currently they call it the Perfect Indicative. Say what you will about any other translation, but that is dishonest.
…
Shawn, I hope this has been enlightening for you, also. I have read much of the Watch Tower’s literature. Have you read any other non-JW works such as Why You Should Believe in the Trinity by Robert Bowman? Or The Forgotten Trinity by James White? Or Reasoning from the Scripture with the Jehovah’s Witnesses by Ron Rhodes?
I appreciate the fact that you are passionate about this, but you really need to look into other sources before you pass judgment based on the handful of sources that the Watch Tower Society lets you see.
I am also passionate about my God and Savior, Jesus Christ and I don’t like it when He is downplayed as something lower than what He is.

Shawn, replying to your direct post to me…
…
Why do accuse me of copy-and-paste? I’m not the one copying convenient yet unverified snippets out of Watch Tower literature.
…
Why do you assume that Raymond Franz is wrong? Because the Watch Tower says so? Why do you say it’s not verifiable? Have you read Franz’s books and seen his source documents or do you simply take the Watch Tower’s word for it? Do you evidence that the NWT translators have training in Greek or Hebrew?
…
Shawn, I never said that proskuneo should be rendered worship for Jesus and no one else. You are putting text in my posts (as opposed to words in my mouth). You didn’t answer what I posted. Can you show me one verse in the NWT where ‘worship’ is used in conjunction with Jesus? They’ve gone out of their way to “un-worship” Jesus, even having to change the text of Hebrews 1:6 after the 1961 edition. The green one says ‘worship’. The text in the KIL says do obesience.
…
Shawn, the NWT uses the Wescott-Hortt Greek text. It’s not the most reliable, but it’s serviceable. Can you tell me which translations use more than one text to translate and in what texts that occurs? The bibles I use – ESV and NASB – all note textual variants in the notes, but they do not ‘switch’, they use the Nestle-Aland and the Eberhard-Aland texts respectively.
Regarding John 14:14, “me” is in both of those manuscripts (and others) but not in the Westcott Hort.
…
Shawn, in regards to Isaiah 43:11, are you saying that at the time it was written, Jehovah was ONLY a Savior for Israel? Who was the Canaanite’s Only Savior? Who was the Egyptian’s Only Savior?
Since Jehovah was only talking to Israel, then prior to that in verse 10 where he says “ ‘You are my witnesses’, is the utterance of Jehovah”, how can the Watch Tower use this verse as evidence for being called “Jehovah’s Witnesses”? I guess only Jews can be Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I think you are reading something in Isaiah that’s not there. He does indeed call himself Judge, and James says there is only one Judge and lawgiver (4:12). Who is it? The Lord also tells Israel that there is no other God beside Him and that he would not share His glory with anyone. There’s nothing in any of these verses that says that’s only meant for Israel. And if the Bible says there is only ONE Judge, ONE Savior, ONE TRUE GOD, then since Jesus was called, Judge, Savior and God, then He is Jehovah. God did not hand off His titles.
…
Shawn, clearly you do not understand the Trinity. No Trinitarian believes in three gods. The Trinity is not a freakish three-headed god or a triad as depicted in “Should You Believe in the Trinity?” I will use James White’s definition of the Trinity: “Within the one Being that is God, there exists eternally three coequal and coeternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.”
Jesus is God. But God is not Jesus. The Father is God. But God is not the Father. The Holy Spirit is God. But God is not The Holy Spirit. There’s a difference. Three Persons in One Being, who is God. Whereas you say that the Father is Jehovah and vice-versa, we believe that the Father is a person of the Trinity.
…
I also hold to Deuteronomy 6:4. The Watch Tower Society, however, teaches that Jesus is ‘a god.’ Is he the One True God (John 17:3) or a false god? He’s either one or the other.

Shawn, How do I reconcile Christ receiving Glory that should only go to the Father (salvation, etc.) when in Isaiah 42:8 Jehovah states the He will not give His glory to anyone else? Easy, Jesus is Jehovah – no contradiction.
Jesus SHARED God’s glory and Jesus says so in John 17:5: “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” (NASB)
…
Shawn, Jesus is called Everlasting Father AND Mighty God in Isaiah 9:6. Jehovah is also called Mighty God in Isaiah 10:21. Jesus also said, “I and my Father are one”, in John 10:28. The Pharisees picked up stones to stone him. Why? “You being a man make yourself out to be God” (10:33) Jesus did not correct them. Jesus is Jehovah God. And yes Jesus quoted Psalm 82:6. But he wasn’t stating a fact, he was rebuking them with the words of Asaph. Asaph said of those judges who thought they were like God, that they would die like anyone else (82:7). Asaph then turns to the true God and says “Arise, O God and judge the earth.” Which will include those judges who thought too much of themselves.
…
Shawn, Regarding the Holy Spirit, how does the lack of article prove that the Holy Spirit is not a person? By that argument, God is not a person either since there’s no definite article before ‘theos’ in various places. I can give you many instances where it’s already there. Mark 3:29; Luke 3:22; 12:12; Acts 5:3. I could go on, but this Acts passage is a favorite of mine. Peter says that Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit. How do you lie to a force? And then in verse 5, Peter says he’s lied to God. The Holy Spirit is equated with God. Ananias didn’t lie to God’s force, he lied to God the Spirit.
…
Shawn, Regarding Philippians 2:6, it all goes back to context. Paul tells us in verse 5 to have this attitude in ourselves and then goes on to talk about Christ. Now the way the Watch Tower Society has rendered it, it sounds as if Jesus, who was “existing in the form of God” was not attempting to seize equality with God. That’s not only a bad translation, but doesn’t make sense in the context. Why would Paul tell his readers to be like Christ and not try to become equal with God?
Another way to render it is that Jesus did not consider equality with God a thing to be “grasped” or “held on to”. What does that mean? It means that Jesus, who already was GOD, made himself as nothing and became a humble, obedient slave, submitting Himself to death on a cross (2:7-8). So Paul’s point is that the Philippian Christians, should be LIKE CHRIST and humble themselves as slaves to each other. Christians are to serve each other before themselves and the Philippians weren’t quite getting that.
Jesus left His lofty position with the Father and submitted Himself. While Jesus was on earth, the Father was greater than Jesus in position, not in being. (John 14:28)

Maribel, I have a wide variety of study aids, but I always return to my Bible. I learned Koine Greek so I could verify. Yet I do not rely on one organization for my information. I think you will find that other organizations, publishing houses, churches all differ greatly with what the Watch Tower teaches. Believe it or not, that’s a healthy thing. The Watch Tower Society trys to be a self contained unit so that you don’t know or believe other teaching and even teach you to fear other teaching as ‘of the devil’. I’m sure that every link I post would be considered ‘apostate literature’. SO based on what you are taught, I understand it is very difficult for you to accept anything I say.
…
I don’t blindly follow my favorite authors or even my pastor. I am also an elder in my church and I would not expect anyone to accept my teaching lock, stock and barrel. You have to verify that what you are taking off of any spoon is the Gospel once to all the saints (Jude 3).
…
I have a question regarding the Ethiopian eunuch. Was he of the Anointed Class or one of the other sheep? Although he had Philip to help with the scriptures, he didn’t follow Philip. He was baptized right away and left rejoicing. The scripture incidates he was a true believer, yet he did not go find a Kingdom Hall or start distributing scrolls.
…
Maribel, Again, I know you didn’t ask me, but I feel compelled to answer. All Christians are part of a worldwide brotherhood also. I have a bond with Romanian, Chinese, British and Kiwi Christians. I fellowship and teach in a local congregation much like New Testament churches had local congregations in different cities. But just like I said before, Christians have a responsibility to test everything and to hold on to what is good. I do NOT go to a church and blindly accept what is taught simply because it has a Baptist, Methodist or Presbyterian label. I am none of those by the way.
…
Maribel, I’ve already addressed John 1:1 further up. I was also accused of cutting and pasting. But I think there’s no secret to where you got these translations of John 1:1. Let me ask you something. Do you have any of these translations sitting on your shelf? Do you know anyone who does? Doesn’t it strike you odd that they had to translate German translations into English to try to make a point?
I don’t know how cutting and pasting an Amazon review makes your point. I can pull up Amazon reviews from many books that hold to my position also.
…
It’s been real, but I only get one Saturday a week. You are all in my prayers. Grace and Peace.
…
Thank you for indulging me Demian.

Van –

Thanks for your reply, it’s late, and I have much to say, so please be patient, I’ll reply ASAP.

Just want to know your position on one thing

when Jesus was on earth, was he 100% man, or 100% God-man?

Shawn,

One other question regarding your response on Isaiah 43:11: “Last, Isaiah 43:11 does say that there is no Savior but Jehovah. However, is this chapter speaking to everyone? No. It is speaking to Israel. To Israel Jehovah is the only Savior.”

Do the Ten Commandments apply to those outside of Israel, because Jehovah is ONLY talking to the Hebrews at the time, because Jehovah never brought the Gentiles as Exodus 20:2 states “out of Egypt”? Using your hermeneutic for Isaiah 43:11 (especially if Isaiah 45 is ignored), would render the Ten Commandments null for Gentiles.

Also, how do you reconcile your hermeneutic of Isaiah 43:11 with John 14:6? There are not two different Saviors. Especially when οὐδεὶς in the Greek plainly is no one (the accusative form, οὐδέν means: nothing (MT 5.13); (b) to refer to invalid concepts, worthless, of no account, meaningless; making it quite clear who can be saved outside of Christ).

One last response to one of your quotes before I must head to bed: “I do not know of any instance where Jesus is said to have the glory of God. Please give me one where it says that Jesus is given God’s glory.”

Psalm 79:9 states that the glory goes to Jehovah for salvation, but 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 2 Timothy 2:10 and 2 Timothy 3:15 all state that salvation is through Christ Jesus. If Jehovah = Salvation and Christ Jesus = Salvation, there is a sharing of glory.

According to Revelation 14:6 the Gospel is eternal/everlasting (αἰώνιος, ον (sometimes ος, ία, ον) eternal, everlasting, opposite πρόσκαιρος (temporary, transitory); (1) of God without beginning or end, eternal (RO 16.26); (2) without beginning (RO 16.25); (3) without end, everlasting (2C 5.1); (4) neuter singular αἰώνιον as an adverb for all time, forever (PM 15)). Therefore, there cannot be a separate salvation for Jews and Gentiles per your hermeneutic for Isaiah 43:11.

Scripture cannot be broken. Therefore Scripture must agree across all books. There is only ONE Savior, Christ Jesus. If there is only ONE Savior but the Bible states that both Jehovah is Savior and Jesus is Savior, what else could that mean other than “The Father and I are one”.

Demian, this will be my last post, thank you !!!!

Proverbs 8:22-30
1Conrinthians 15:20-28
Revelation 1:1
Revelation 3:14

Maribel, it’s a misunderstanding to think that Jesus has to be 100% God OR 100% man OR 50/50 as if he’s some type of hybrid or a pie chart. Jesus was God and man.
…
Jesus was God while on earth.
He humbled Himself as a servant (Phil 2:7), but He did not give up His Deity when he came to earth. He was called “God with us” (Matt 1:23); He forgave sins(Matt 9:5); Thomas called Him “My God” (John 20:28); He claimed to be eternal (John 1:1,2; 17:5); Pharisees attempted to stone Him for claiming He was equal with God (John 5:18; 10:33); He had the power to raise Himself from the dead (John 10:17); He knew all things(John 2:24; 21:17) and despite the translation of the NWT, he received worship (Matt 14:11; Luke 24:52; John 9:38).
…
Jesus was man while on earth.
He was born of a woman (Luke 2:7) but not from the seed of man (Matt 1:20); He expressed emotion (John 11:35); He experience thirst (John 19:28); He ate food before and after His resurrection (Matt 11:19; Luke 24:42-43); He bled and suffered injury (Luke 22:44,63); He experienced death (Luke 23:46); He was raised in the flesh (John 20:27), NOT as a spirit being (Luke 24:39).
…
In order to be the mediator between God and man, He had to represent both (1 Tim 2:5). And indeed, He was God and man. There are no verses to support him at anytime being the archangel Michael.
…
He had to be man to die, but He also had to be God to raise Himself from the dead. The Watch Tower teaches that Jesus was a “corresponding ransom” to Adam and that if he were God, then the ransom price would be too high. But he didn’t die for the sin of Adam, He died for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). He gave his life for the ransom of the many (Matt 20:28). So yes, the ransom price was ‘high’, but sin is that serious. A holy infinite God is offended by our sin and our works are as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). The work of “publishing” is as dirty rags to Jehovah. He has no use for them. There must be an atoning sacrifice that will cover many sins.
…
The Watch Tower teaches that grace is an opportunity to work toward our salvation. That’s incorrect, grace is a free gift. If grace is not free, then it ceases to be grace (Rom 11:6). We are not saved BY works, we are saved for them. Salvation is by faith, not works so that we can’t boast about them. (Eph 2:8-10) If I’m saved I can do as many works as I want for the right reason, not to earn my salvation. Those who believe also have the hope of being WITH Jesus for eternity (John 12:26), it is not only for an anointed class. I look forward to an eternity with Jesus, because I will never be snatched out of his hand. (John 10:28-29) I know that I’ve been born again because I believe in Jesus (1 John 5:1). The Watch Tower Society won’t extend this hope to you.
…
And the reason I say all that is because the salvation that becomes clear from scripture, a salvation complete with assurance, eternal life and the promise of Heaven and to be with Christ forever comes only because Jesus is God and man. If you have the wrong Jesus, then you don’t have any hope. John wrote that if you don’t have the Son, you don’t have the Father either (1 John 2:23) and if you don’t have the Son you don’t have life (1 John 5:12).
…
It is immensely important that you have the right Jesus. You will not find Him in the Watch Tower Society.

Maribel, I hope you’ll continue to read even if you don’t post. You wrote Proverbs 8:22-30 in your last one. The Watch Tower Society says this is a reference to Jesus. That will not work. It is a personification of wisdom. If it is Jesus, then we need an explanation as to why he is depicted as a woman yelling in the street in Proverbs 1:20 and why he lives with someone named prudence in 8:12. If Jesus is wisdom, who is prudence?
Also, verse 22 says that the Lord possessed wisdom at the beginning of his work. Can you imagine a time when the Lord did not possess wisdom? If he acquired it, where did he get it from?
The Watch Tower Society is misleading you.

“God with us” (Matt 1:23)-All God’s represenatatives are “God with us”..wasn’t Moses?
He forgave sins(Matt 9:5)-John 20:23:If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.(Jesus gives disciples permission and authority to forgive sin!)
Thomas called Him “My God” (John 20:28)-He is a mighty god!Ppl in appointed positions of power are gods and Jesus is a mighty one second only to the one he called the only true God.For evidence of who gave Jesus his power check out Isaiah 9:7 ..the bible will also let you know a certain someone whose name is rarely uttered was very pleased indeed to bless his son
He claimed to be eternal (John 1:1,2; 17:5)-This only proves he was there in the beginning with Jehovah when the heavens and earth etc were created..and that he was the preexistent word of God..NOT that he himself didn’t have a beginning.
He was equal with God (John 5:18; 10:33)-The pharisees also said he was demon possessed and breaking the sabbath didn’t they?I hope they aren’t your authority,esp since Jesus refuted them by letting them know he did nothing by himself or of his own initiative..I don’t think Almighty God could ever say that!!
He had the power to raise Himself from the dead (John 10:17)-He provided the basis by his obedience supplication and strong faith to be raised..so he FIGURATIVELY raised himself in that respect..just like the woman figurateively healed herself because “her faith made her well”.He also could’ve been referencing the fact that the body raised there was the chief cornerstione of the great spiritual temple soon to be built and alluding to his being the first of many brethren.
He knew all things(John 2:24; 21:17)-then how come he didn’t know the day or the hour and had to be given a revelation (1:1)?
he received worship (Matt 14:11; Luke 24:52; John 9:38).-so did appointed earthly kings and slave owners and heavenbound faithful brothers of Christ
1 Chronicles 29:20: And David said to all the assembly, Now bless Yahweh your God. And all the assembly blessed Jehovah, the God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshiped Yahweh, and the king.”
Rev 3:9:I will make those who belong to the synagogue of Satan-those who claim to be Jews and aren’t, but are lying-come and bow down at your feet. Then they will realize that I have loved you.

Do you REALLY believe the following or do you somehow have to rearrange the following’s true meaning to fit your theology?:

*Hebrews 2:17 :For this reason he had to be made LIKE HIS BROTHERS IN EVERY WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people

*Hebrews 4:15: For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who HAS BEEN TEMPTED IN EVERY WAY JUST AS WE ARE—yet was without sin
*Matt. 12:39-40:three days and three nights in the heart of the earth
*Revelation 1:18:the living one. I was dead, but look-I am alive forever and ever!

In order to be the mediator between God and man, He had to represent both (1 Tim 2:5)-no..he only had to have been a man to intercede in our behallf to his father..you know..the one he called “the only true God”..why would he have to BE God to do that?If he WAS God he wouldn’t need to intercede TO God..in our behalf.

Salvation is by faith, not works so that we can’t boast about them. (Eph 2:8-10)-JW’s KNOW this..they have plenty to do in the work of the Lord because they love him not because they think they can earn salvation!

I know that I’ve been born again because I believe in Jesus (1 John 5:1). The Watch Tower Society won’t extend this hope to you.-Actually,the JW’s know that some will be born again as kings and priests in heaven and others will be born again and become children of God after being brought to life in the millennium by being healed of all these ills.Do you think there will be a new heavens and a new earth or just a new heavens?Do you think there might be a reason God put a desire for “peace on earth” in our hearts?Of course,this is all assuming you think the heavenly calling is the only one.If not,I digress.

if you don’t have the Son, you don’t have the Father either (1 John 2:23) and if you don’t have the Son you don’t have life (1 John 5:12).-AGREED!We have BOTH

As for proverbs,to say that isn’t about Jesus would be to ignore NUMEROUS corresponding texts!Not only is Jesus flat out called the wisdom of God several times,but these scriptures correspond BEAUTIFULLY with Col 1:15,rev 3:14,John 17:5,John 1:1,the list goes on and on!!Want more proof?I got it..just ask.Hebrew nouns had assigned genders.Wisdom isn’t literally either female OR Jesus.However,Jesus is absolutely personifying wisdom there..Just because the word itself has a gender isn’t even an issue.And yes,Jesus has prudence.And yes,He is te wisom of God,God’s most beautiful,faithful porecious and beloved son and creation.Can you find me an instance when the firstborn of a group isn’t a member of the group they are firstborn of?Thanks!He is absolutely the firstborn heir to a kingdom.I hope you don’t really believe ALmighty God can be heir to anything!But ,alas,I guess you do!

Kellie,
Due to lack of time and since I’ve already handled much of what you’ve brought up earlier, I’m only going to make just a few points here. Plus, your post is jumbled and confusing, so I’m having to decipher some things…
…
Can you show me anywhere where any one OTHER THAN JESUS is called ‘Immanuel’ or ‘God with us’? Being God’s representative is not the same as being God.
…
The Pharisees thought he was blaspheming when he forgave sins and rightly said, “Who can forgive sins but God alone?” Mark 2:7
…
Thomas didn’t say he was a mighty god, he said he was MY GOD. Tell me, was Thomas taking God’s name in vane?
…
Concerning gods, the Bible is very clear about the One True God and other gods – other gods are false gods and idols are not really gods, they are wood and stone. Whereas other gods are mentioned in the Old and New Testament, there is no confusion that they are false and not real. The question remains: Which one is Jesus, the One True God or a false god?
…
The Bible says Jesus created ALL THINGS. Did He create Himself? I dealt with this earlier. If Jesus created all things, then He is THE CREATOR and uncreated Himself.
…
Jesus did not refute the Pharisees claim that He made Himself to be God. When the Pharisees said that he preformed His miracles by Beelzebul, He told them that they were blaspheming the Spirit.
…
Jesus literally raised Himself from the dead. Can you show me in scripture where it says he was raised a spirit being or that His former body was disintegrated?
Please show in scripture where Jesus’ resurrection corresponds to “the fact that the body raised there was the chief cornerstione of the great spiritual temple soon to be built and alluding to his being the first of many brethren.” What body are you talking about?
“Her faith made her well.” Faith in what? That JESUS could heal her.
…
Jesus wasn’t given a revelation – The Apostle John was. Jesus (God the Son) was under the authority of God the Father. See my handling of Phil 2:6. Although Jesus didn’t relinquish His deity, He submitted Himself to the Father. It was up to the Father to determine that time of His return.
…
False gods are worshipped also. If Jesus was only a perfect sinless man, then He would have rejected that worship. When John bowed down before the angel in Revelation 22:8, the angel told him NOT to do that. Why did Jesus accept it?
…
I don’t have a problem with any of the verses you listed – Heb 2:17; 4:15; Matt 12:39-40; Rev 1:8. These verses point to Jesus’ humanity. In order to make atonement for sins, He died as a man but being God, He raised Himself from the dead. I mentioned this earlier.
…
If he didn’t need to be God to mediate, then he didn’t need to be man either. That’s Watch Tower bias coming out. He wasn’t interceding TO God, He was interceding FOR God. He had to fully represent God to be a mediator between God and man. He was both GOD and MAN.
…
You do not understand what ‘born again’ means. To be born again is to be born by the Spirit of God. It does not mean that I must die and be resurrected as a spirit being. Please show me from scripture where people will be “born again as kings and priests in heaven and others will be born again and become children of God”. When Peter speaks to those who are “born again” in 1 Peter 1:23, who is he talking to? Dead people? I have been born again, have you?
…
There will be a new heavens and a new earth – after the millennium. The New Heavens and New Earth are literally just that. It is not groups of people. The earth will be made new as will the heavens. Did you know that there will be no need for the sun because Christ will be the light? (Revelation 21:23)
…
Show me in scripture where Jesus is said to be ‘wisdom’ in Proverbs. I still need to know who Prudence is and why you think Jesus is a WOMAN CALLING IN THE STREET. What did God do before He had wisdom? Did He have to learn some hard lessons? Did He know more than He did before He acquired it?
…
Can I “find an instance when the firstborn of a group isn’t a member of the group they are firstborn of?” What? I have no idea what that means. Perhaps you’re asking if there ever was a “first born” who was not the first born. And yes there were. Esau was born before Jacob, but Jacob was called “firstborn”. David was the last sun of Jesse, yet he was called “firstborn”. Look it up.
…
“First born” (protokos) does not mean first created. When the Bible means the first child, it is clear by the context. When Jesus is called “the firstborn of the dead” in Colossians 1:18, weren’t there others who came back from the dead BEFORE Jesus did? The word for beginning (arche) can also be translated ruler or beginner, as in the one who began it.
…
I believe as the Bible teaches that Jesus is God and Man. He has not ascended to David’s throne yet. So He is an heir to the throne in that respect.
…
You guess. Well, that’s all you can do, because the Watch Tower Society changes the meaning behind words, mistranslates regardless of context, and holds no hope before you that you are saved at all. I don’t have to guess. I can know that I have eternal life (1 John 5:13).

Hi Van! I agree that my post was jumbled because it was bedtime and I was very rushed and just wanted to briefly address the lies..I noticed you failed to heed any reasoning point that was made so there is NO point in continuing to try to defend truths that are pretty clear and those truths are that Jesus is in fact God’s own most beloved son,appointed king and messiah,savior and exalted.Anything beyond that is just lies.OF COURSE he had to be given the revelation.OF course God’s representatives,as well as angels,kings,judges,etc. are absolutely soemtimes called God!OF course you ignore those texts I left..you have to to fit your theology.You don’t believe that Jesus was REALLY a man or that he was REALLY tempted or that he REALLY died.OR that he is REALLY a servant or REALLY a son or REALLY not omniscient ..etc.
And if you would apply similar reasoning like this :
Please show me from scripture where people will be “born again as kings and priests in heaven and others will be born again and become children of God”

to the texts you twist and make invalid by your tradition then you might wake up to the fact that Jehovah and Jesus are father and son without imposing your inferrences on every single text that negates your philosophical doctrine..

As for born again,yes I belive some are born again into the celestial image of Christ and others will be born again into the image of a perfected terrestrial being(1 cor 15:38,40) ,as only flesh live on earth.I believe Jesus is no longer flesh,as he is the exact representation of his father,who is a mighty spirit!.SO I won’t be returning to answer any objections as you failed to heed a single reasoning point and choose to redefine the word “God” to fit whatever a creed has spelled out for you.I do hope you’ll pray to Jehovah and accept him into your heart as Jesus opened the way for us to do that..God(Jehovah) bless in the name of his Christ!

Maribel and Shawn were much more tactful than I am and for that I am sorry.I think sometimes being bold is a good approach when ppl are intentionally twisting facts like Jesus being God’s son,man,servant,tempted,dead etc into something than what the bible,my authority,clearly says.I REALLY do wish you the best though in your further studies and in your life.Take care!

Oh before I forget(and I know this is jumbled again) you failed to point out any single instance where the firstborn of a group isn’t a member of that group,so until anyone does,in harmony with numerous harmonious texts,is there ANY reason I should believe Jesus isn’t a part of God’s very creation?No there isn’t …

The bible says the heavens can’t even contain Jehovah yet you think flesh can.rom 1:23
Sorry to hear that.The bible say he sent his son so we aren’t left in the dark who REALLY emptied their celestial glory.hmmm..could it have been his son?

As for Prov 8:22-31 if you don’t think that is Jesus you aren’t recognizing the harmony in the word of God.Such a shame!

*1 Corinthians 1:24-but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God..30:It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

*Luke 11:48-51..verse 49 in particular reads :That is why the Wisdom of God said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles. They will kill some of them and persecute others(Jesus speaking..see matthew 23:33-35)

How do we KNOW these scriptures are pertaining to Jesus when wisdom is called a she and the book is so poetic?By comparing them to other biblical texts and being honest and prayerful,that’s how.Ask yourself questions like why is Jesus called the “wisdom of God?”Examine the following:

*1 Corinthians 1:24-but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God..30:It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

*Luke 11:48-51..verse 49 in particular reads :That is why the Wisdom of God said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles. They will kill some of them and persecute others(Jesus speaking..see matthew 23:33-35)

Proverbs ch 8
22The LORD(Jehovah) possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; (OR:Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,(NASB)
31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

Ok..now let’s take a few one by one..
**Proverbs 8:22:The LORD(Jehovah) possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

possessed-To have as property; own.

*John 1:1:In the beginning ,the word was WITH GOD

**Proverbs 8:23:I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
*set up -

To place in an upright position.,to establish,found

**Proverbs 8:24:When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
verse 25:Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

NOW compare these texts with all the following:
bring forth
1. To give rise to; produce: plants bringing forth fruit.
2. To give birth to (young).

*John 1:18:No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

beget
Verb
[-getting, -got] or -gat;-gotten or -got Old-fashioned
1. to cause or create2. to father

*Revelation 3:14:These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:(creation OF or BY God),,twist it any way you like but evidence builds to mean something the trinitarians don’t like to acknowledge)

*Colossians 1:15:He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation

image-
1. A reproduction of the form of a person or object, especially a sculptured likeness.
2. Physics An optically formed duplicate, counterpart, or other representative reproduction of an object, especially an optical reproduction formed by a lens or mirror.
3. One that closely or exactly resembles another; a double:

*firstborn-the offspring who came first in the order of birth(I know what trinitarians argue about these texts,,I’m just trying to be honest with myself and use the whole of the bible as my basis)

**Proverbs 8:26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
8:30:Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; (OR:Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,(NASB)

*work·man-a craftsman or artisan

*1 Corinthians 8:6:yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom everything came into being and for whom we live. And there is only one Lord, Jesus the Messiah, through whom everything came into being and through whom we live.(ISV)

*Genesis 1:26:Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness

*Colossians 1:16-20:16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

So after Christ was “born,”brought forth”,firstly “created” ,THROUGH him all things afterward were THEN created..because it goes without saying that trinitarians logic that this means he is equal to God doesn’t stand in light of 1 corinthinas 15:27,28 and Proverbs 8:22,23 &30.We know from a PREPONDERANCE of texts that Christ has always been the inferior obedient SON of God,the most special dear and awesome one!

..Jehovah created everything through him and for him(for them both!),wouldn’t you do that with and for YOUR most beloved?

*Matthew 3:17:And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”(prov 8:30 tells us one reason Jehovah is so pleased with Jesus)

*Mark 10:18: Jesus said to him: ‘Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God.(again,goes along with “rejoicing always before him”)

*2 Corinthians 1:3: Praise be to the God (Theos) and Father of our Lord (kurios) Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God (Theos) of all comfort.(ahh..why wouldn’t Jesus want to obey and worship and be used by such a God?)

*John 14:10:The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own. It is the Father who dwells in me(remember God’s spirit descending as a dove onto christ?) and who carries out his work.(why would he rely on his father..perhaps because his father gave him his life ,knowledge and power and glory?)

*John 14:28:I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I(of course he is..isn’t Jesus said to “rejoice always before him?!”)

*John 17:5:So now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world existed.(again,goes along well with these proverbs!)

*John 17:25:O righteous Father, the world has not known you: but I have known you, and these have known that you have sent me.(yes Jesus has known Jehovah longer than anyone else..it’s such a beautiful relationship)

*John 20:17:I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.(ahhh..Jesus has the same God we should..Jehovah.Please don’t negate Jehovah,Jesus’s God!Isn’t that what you are doing when you worship Jesus AS God?)

**Proverbs 8:31:Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

*John 3:16:or God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.(these are such lovely verses to prove one reason why Jesus was chosen to save us..He loved us dearly be4 the world ever was!It warms the heart to think of Jesus paying us attention and delighting in us before he was ever chosen and sent to save us )

Proverbs is a very poetic book so why not use wisdom to personify Christ in a poetic book?Jesus is the most perfect created representation of God’s wisdom that is and also his most beloved mouthpiece!
Imagine the awe wonder amazement and love being before such a maginificent throne!!!What a privilege to worship and obey such a God,who epitomizes love and everything pure,holy and good.Jesus is the opposite of Satan,Jesus is OBEDIENT,GRATEFUL,using his beauty and power and authority that God GAVE him for the power of all that is GOOD!No rebellion in Jesus!THAT is why he inherited a name greater then the angels and has been given authority over the kingdom of God!God still upholds his throne though.He is still assigned the duty BY Jehovah and GIVEN the power BY Jehovah.Remember Moses face after beholding God’s glory face to face he had to wear a veil for the glow and light was too much.What a magnificent God we have!

One trinitarian argument is that God could never have existed without his “wisdom” therefore Christ has to be God.Think about it though.Are you suggesting that Christ is the wisdom and the father didn’t have any until the son came along or that the father doesn’t have any without the son present? Jesus is the greatest of God’s creations,being “in the busom position”(a favored position) and “at his right hand” and “glad before him all the time”,his “word”,his “mouthpiece”,a poetic representation and personification of God’s wisdom indeed..The first creation,with Him the longest and wise beyond our comprehension ,absorbing and being firsthand THE closest witness to God’s very throne and glory!Jesus said himself his words were his father’s words because he relied on his father for everything so therefore,he represents the wisdom of God indeed!.My intention here was to present proof from other scriptural texts that go along with the ones in proverbs that these scriptures do indeed poetically and without a doubt speak of Christ!

Here’s a lil reasoning from a website(I’ll provide the link)
http://www.scripturaltruths.com/

“Hebrew, much like Greek, assigns a gender to every noun. The Hebrew noun for wisdom, chokmah is feminine in gender, and so it naturally demands the use of feminine pronouns. Genesis 49:21 provides us with another example: “Naphtali is a hind let loose, that bears comely fawns.” (Revised Standard Version.) Here the man Naphtali is called “a hind,” “a female deer,” and “a doe,” but not “a ram.” He, who is metaphorically represented as a “she,” even produces fawns! Clearly the use of feminine nouns and language for a male is not a valid ground for objection. Others, such as Solomon are identified in a similar manner, with the title of “congregator” also being feminine. (Ecc. 1:1) Jesus is the personified Wisdom of Proverbs. He is not the attribute, but a person that personifies the attribute. As the first of God’s creation, he personifies it because all of God’s wisdom is seen in the creation of him and it continues to be seen in this one’s works. “(col 2:3,1 cor 4:24,30)
So,wisdom is not literally a she,just like Jesus is not literally wisdom,but personifies it.The objection isn’t valid.

Colossians 2:3:In him are stored all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge

Kellie,
Sorry, I can’t wade through any more of your jumbled posts.

that’s fine.They’re filled with truth you can’t handle yet.

Van, do you know what your problem is? You like to “debate about words” and do you know what Paul said about people who debate about words? He says that people like that are “puffed up with pride, not understanding anything.” (1 Timothy 6:3-4) You are also very good at twisting Scripture and taking words out of context!

Example: When Jesus performed his miracle and the Pharisees said that he was doing it by the power of Beelzebul he said that they were blaspheming the holy spirit. Great job twisting that (and many other things to blindly say what you want them to say).

Anyway, to answer your question: Christ was not equating himself with the holy spirit but he said, “If it is BY MEANS OF God’s spirit that I expel the demons…” (Matthew 12:28) In the alternate account in Luke we see that he said, “If it is BY MEANS OF God’s finger that I expel the demons…” (Luke 11:20) Christ was equating God’s spirit with God’s finger, not with himself. Again, great job.

This will be my last post but I have one thing to say to you. In Isaiah 44 Jehovah says, “I am the first and the last, and besides me there is no God.” He also says, “Does there exist a God besides me? No, there is not rock. I have recognized none.” (Isaiah 44:6, There is no God except Jehovah. I assume you agree with that.

Christ then said, “‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, TO MY GOD and your God.’” (John 20:17) Paul said, “Blessed be THE GOD and Father OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.” Peter said, “Blessed be THE GOD and Father OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.” (2 Corinthians 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3) In your case, this presents a contradiction, for if Jehovah is the only God, and Jehovah is also the God of our Savior, Jesus Christ, then Jesus IS NOT that same God. There is no way around that.

Sure, go ahead and take other Scriptures and twist them but then your no better then those people Peter wrote about: “Paul…also wrote you…some things are to understand, which the UNTAUGHT and UNSTEADY are TWISTING as they do also the REST OF THE SCRIPTURES.”-2 Peter 3:15-16

I feel bad for you, Van. You cannot see the Truth. Your eyes have been “blinded by the god of this age.” (2 Cor. 4:4) He has put a veil over your eyes and the only way it can be removed is if you turn to Jehovah. (2 Cor. 3:16) Yes, there are Scriptures that can be translated more then one way (John 1:1; 8:58; Hebrews 1:8) that can be rendered in a way that proves the Trinity. Just keep holding on to those verses if you want to. Go ahead and say “Isaiah 9:6 says Christ is “Mighty God’” Yes, Christ is a “Mighty God” but so are angels (Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:7), humans (Psalm 82:6), and Satan the Devil. (2 Cor. 4:4). Christ IS a god. (John 1:1, HET) Not Almighty God.

(Yes, yes, I know that you know that argument already but it is effective because it is true.) How about 115 verses that disprove the Trinity? Read them, pray about them, meditate on them! I compiled them using the NASB so you can’t use the “those are from the NWT and my Bible will say something different”. I have a lot of respect for YLT, NASB, and ESV.
———-
I bid you farewell, friend, and pray that you will really take into account what I have said.
———-

That is my last post, Van. You present good arguments but they fall to pieces under further inspection. You see, you cannot take a few verses and make a doctrine. The entire Bible has be harmonious and it just isn’t harmonious if you teach that Jesus Christ is God. Either you are wrong or the Bible contradicts itself and since the Bible is perfect…
———-
It has been fun but I have better things to do. I want to help as many people attain to the salvation that Christ has so freely given me. I know I cannot work for it but my faith moves me to preach. I have a very strong assurance that I have attained to salvation and that I have a hope for the future–eternal life in a paradise earth. I wish that you could truly have that assurance. I know that you claim that you do but that doesn’t make it automatically true. I am so grateful to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that I have a hope!

Praise Jesus! Worship God! HALLELUJAH! “I will sing to Jehovah throughout my life! I will make melody to my God as long as I live!”-Psalm 104:33

P.S.-Even if Jesus is “God the Son” we are still told to only worship and pray to the Father in Scripture, not the Son. If the Trinity is true you are still presented with a problem.-Matt. 4:10; 5:16; 6:6, 9; John 4:21-24

http://myaiua.blogspot.com/2008/12/bible-does-not-teach-trinity_21.html

Sorry: This is my blog with the 115 Scriptures that prove the Trinity is unbiblical.

And there you have it, folks. Three wonderful examples of the Witnesses. I’ll label them Numbers One, Two, and Three.

Number One has presented the most polite of the three, and actually attempted to answer most of the questions that were presented to her. I’d say she’s done a fine job of exercising patience and consideration for the fact that she is at someone else’s site and that she’s representing the Organization. While I certainly don’t agree with the doctrine of the Watch Tower Society anymore, I must say that she is the best example of the Slave Class who is willing to stand firm in what they believe in, in the face of overwhelming opposition.

Number Two started out as polite as One, but once the questions flew hard and fast his true colors have begun to show. You’ll notice he focused on the one commenter who has openly identified himself as an elder in his church, and as time has worn on he has resorted to straw men, excessive CAPITALS, and question dodging. He has flung up a flurry of Scriptural “sound bites” like an octopus squirting ink while he makes his getaway. This is classic training that leads me to wonder if Two has been in the Organization the longest of the three.

Enter Number Three. Note the cheerful, chipper condescension. Also note the disjointed pile of Scripture bits she dumped on the carpet. Someone went through their little blue Reasoning From the Scriptures book, tore the pages out, made a bunch of little paper airplanes, and hurled them at us. Given the fact that she has almost none of the “quiet and mild spirit” that female Witnesses are expected to cultivate, I can’t help but wonder whether she’s even been baptized or not. If so, then certainly not for long. If the elders at her Kingdom Hall saw what she had just written, they would be reprimanding her in the office. I hope she’s not using that kind of lip during Field Service.

So far, I’ve seen nothing that gives me any reason to return to the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. I’ve seen much that makes me weep with agony–and pray all the more fervently–for those who will likely be cast out into a darkness they will disprove until they find themselves there.

May Jehovah God Almighty open your hearts to the Spirit of Truth and blow away the poisonous cobwebs that the Governing Body has filled your heads with.

In Christ the Lord’s everlasting Love,

–Denita

I’m an inactive Jehovah’s Witness who is looking forward to becoming active again.And your insults don’t answer the SERIOUS questions and truths that the trinitarians and JW opposers willfully ignore.I would also suggest,before calling others condescending etc..that you extract the rafter from your own eye.I told the elders I have been internet witnessing and they haven’t “reproved” me yet but I’m sure they’d prefer I go in field service as it is clearly the best way.I never mean to be condescending OR rude,just bold and honest.I’m not as patient with ppl who redefine words like son,greater,dead,servant,tempted,omniscient,etc. to fit a traditional philosophical unbiblical doctrine as maybe I should be.I will continue to pray for the fruits of the spirit and I wish I could say that my brief time here has been fruitful and enjoyable but it would be a lie.I’m not exactly sure how the scriptures I cited and the reasoning I presented isn’t valid (and I haven’t opened my reasoning book AT ALL)but as I already stated,one has to redefine biblical texts to continue believing everyone is going to heaven and Jesus is the same God his father is.

Kellie,

IF you would kindly look as the questions I have posted above, you will find that I tried my best to not be on the “attack” and I believe that I have asked some honest and pertinent questions. However, the JWs posting comments have avoided several of these questions (one particular commenter in specific [although several questions were responded to, but my responses afterwards apparently were ignored]) in favor of entering into a “debate of words” as his own words calls it.

Also, true and honest debate cannot be had when one side actively suppresses questions. One of the JW commenters here had a post regarding the WTS not being false prophets, but refuses to allow comments refuting this claim on the post. Comments have been made at my site regarding it, and several comments by that author show up here after I submitted my comment on the false prophecies of the WTS and those comments still have not been approved.

When someone is unwilling to allow a side to present their case in a debate, it makes me wonder the motive of the one suppressing the comments. If you have the TRUTH, do not hide comments, and do not sanitize a public forum debate. Stand behind the TRUTH and have an honest debate. Do you think Christ suppressed the accusations and opposite claims of the false teachers of His time? No, he allowed them to speak, there words be heard, and then calmly took them to Scripture. This is the example I have tried to take here, and I humbly ask the same from everyone else.

Those who follow Christ are to walk in love with others, especially when in disagreement. Unfortunately, several of the commenters here have stepped outside of love and have let frustration and arrogance cloud their words and this in NO way shows the Heart of Christ.

I humbly ask that ALL involved in this debate look at your heart and search for the source of offense in your heart. If the offense is because you feel that Jehovah or Christ have been offended by something brought up in this debate… GET OVER IT… Jehovah and Christ can certainly take care of Themselves. If the offense is because an organization has been slighted, please deal with the idol in your heart you have made a man-made organization into.

Please play, and debate in love and with Scripture, else look forward to the outer darkness.

-Eric

Eric,I did not read all the posts here..I read one and as a defender of truth,I responded to that one(from Van)..I have no interest in continuing any debate as I assume stronger JW’s than I have made valid beautiful points that have been ignored..so anything beyond this would be futile.God bless.

Kellie,

One should not assume that all points have been ignored. Why not read the debate and find out for sure?

If you do not want to join the debate, that is perfectly fine, but please do not arrogantly assume that points made by JWs commenting here have been ignored. There is only so much time in the day to read and digest what has been posted, and I wish to take the time to research and respond in my voice, not resort to posting what others (other than the inspired authors of Scripture) have said. Sometimes however, copying and pasting from WTS documents is the only way to back up my points about the honesty of the WTS.

In parting: Assume NOTHING and research EVERYTHING.

Sorry, but my curiosity led me back to this site, and I can’t help but jump in again

I appeal to all trinitarians to really understand the dangers of this false doctrine. You need to understand that a REAL DEATH was needed in order for atonement to be possible. Like in the temple, where an animal had to be SLAUGHTERED. YES, the animal had to truly be DEAD, dead, dead. It’s the only way FOR ATONEMENT. So my question to all trinitarians is, CAN GOD DIE????? absolutely not. Did Jesus fake his death??? Was he dead, but two parts of the Godhead ALIVE???? Well, that technically NULLIFIES ransom!!!! Do you see how it is not possible. And doesn’t that sound like something Satan would say… “nah, he didn’t REALLY die”, it sounds like something he said to Eve. Why is this “I don’t share my glory” thing even an issue. You are so missing the point about what God meant by that. So I’ll advise you to read the context around that statement. But why are you, trinitarian, limiting what God can and cannot do???? He can share his glory with whom ever he pleases, especially with his only-begotten son. (by the way, look up what beget means). HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, is Jehovah. So holy, he cannot have a direct relationship with us. We need a middleman, and we all know who he is right??? Yes, CHRIST Jesus, our Master, our Lord, Gods Chief Agent, do you know what being an agent means?. This is where you, trinitarian, should limit God, mainly that in our fallen human state, God in his hollyness, cannot have any direct dealings with us, much less come down from heaven and dwell with imperfect mortal humans!!!! And thus a mediator is required. The minute you elevate Jesus as God almighty, the ransom falls apart!!! That’s a terrible thing to do, please don’t NULLIFY the value of the price God paid with the blood of his beloved son Jesus. EVERYTHING Jesus has, has been given to him by the father, he was exalted to a higher position, he did not exalt himself, and he did NOT raise himself from the dead, his father raised him.

I will leave you with a link to a blogger whom is not a JW. But obviously can see the grave error of this false doctrine. This blogger takes you on a imaginary trip to a court room. and puts our Lord Jesus on the witness chair.
I also recommend reading some of the other articles listed on the side bar of this blog.

trinity on trial part 1:
http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2006/08/trinity-on-trial-verdict-by-kn-stovra_05.html

trinity on trial part 2:
http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2006/08/trinity-on-trial-verdict-by-kn-stovra.html

The Trinity doctrine is NOT in the scriptures, this doctrine was DEVELOPED in the process of many, many years. It is a satanical doctrine, it is a doctrine that serves Satan, it does not glorify God, nor his Son Jesus!!!!!

Sorry Demian, could not help myself. Hopefully this will be my last post.

Oh, one more thing, if anybody gets the chance to read the remarkable story of Micheal Servetus. He was a kind of Albert Einstein of the 16th century, he could speak and read several languages including Hebrew and Greek, and he read the Bible in their original languages, he was a courageous man that spoke out against the trinity, and was killed for doing so. Oh, and he was not a JW.

okay Eric I won’t assume anything..I’ll just bow out and wish you well..JW’s DO research everything..that is how they know to come out of Babylon the Great and into the arms of Jehovah.

Kellie: Before you bow out, what’s Babylon the Great?

I want to apologize to everyone for my previous comment…I’m sorry I got snarky when I should be a good Christian representative. Kellie, you’re right, I’m surprised I didn’t knock the monitor off my desk with the plank in my eye.

Like you, I also get frustrated when words are misused. Words like Glory, that Jehovah suddenly shared with Jesus after He claims otherwise in Isaiah 42:8. Words like The, that suddenly disappear like in Isaiah 9:6. Words like God, that suddenly lose their capital G (Isaiah 9:6 again). Words like Idols and False Prophets, that are apparently only present in every other organization other than the WTS.

Passion for what you believe is commendable. But pervasive smug fanaticism, rampant back-patting, and a near-xenophobic mentality is not. Covering up past mistakes under a blanket of secrecy and misdirection is not. Idolization of an earthly organization is not. Pharisaical behavior encouraged among elders and overseers is not.

But that gives me no excuse to behave in an ill manner myself. So I want to apologize both to the Witnesses here, and Demian whose virtual rug we’ve been tracking mud all over, and the others like Mr. Edwards. Please forgive me. I’ll try to keep my own temper in check.

In God’s Grace,

–Denita

Demian–Witnesses are taught that every other religious organization other than their own including Trinitarian Christian denominations (they use the term “Christendom” in a derogatory sense,), as well as all secular, political, and governmental institutions are “Babylon the Great”, as identified in their version of Revelation.

Revelation is rather fascinating. Almost every bit of their justification for the Organization is predicated on events in the final Book of the Bible. They have a red book on it (books are colloquially referred to by either their cover color, their publishing abbreviation, or the first couple of words in the title.) that is absolutely amazing to read, in how much effort they have gone into interpreting every passage of Revelation to fit their doctrine.

–Denita

Demian –

Please take the time to read this article about
“Babylon the Great”

http://www.watchtower.org/e/kn37/article_01.htm

Thank you Denita for the thorough reply. And by the way, my rug is your rug. And Maribel’s. And Van’s. And Eric’s. Did I miss anyone? As a wallflower, this is absolutely amazing.

Maribel: Read it…now, what did you want me to get out of it?

Number Two started out as polite as One, but once the questions flew hard and fast his true colors have begun to show.
———
Actually, I started out as polite One because everyone else was polite. Once Others started to “raise” their “voices” at me I resorted right back to it. I admit, I have changed in that regard in the years since I’ve been a Witness (I used to be worse!) but when I am talked to in the manner in which Van talked to me I get a little irritated. His tone was condescending towards me. He also says things with force (because if you say things with force or with complete assurance others will automatically assume you are right) and with a smugness and arrogance about him. Please, do not single me, person Two, out when others are displaying the same behavior as me.
———
———
You’ll notice he focused on the one commenter who has openly identified himself as an elder in his church,
———
I did not focus on him because he was an Elder in his church. I focused on him because he was the one making the most points.
———
———
and as time has worn on he has resorted to straw men, excessive CAPITALS, and question dodging.
———
I apologize about the capitals. I use the capitals for emphasize because I am not sure if HTML works on here. I would use italics but I don’t want silly code to show up if it doesn’t work! Sorry about that.
———
———
He has flung up a flurry of Scriptural “sound bites” like an octopus squirting ink while he makes his getaway.
———
The Elder in His Church has used “sound bites”, too. The only reason I assumed it was ok was because he was doing it. I apologize that I did not realize I was being judged more harshly then Elder in His Church. I will keep that in mind. I have to remember that I represent Jehovah God, the Sovereign of the Universe and His Son, Jesus Christ.
———-
———-
This is classic training that leads me to wonder if Two has been in the Organization the longest of the three.
———-
I doubt that. I was actually in a non-denominational church for many years. I was going to become a missionary for a few years after finishing high school and then I was going to come back and start my own church. I actually learned these true colors when I was a church-going, anti-JW “Christian” and have cooled off a GREAT (capitals substitute for italics) deal since coming into Jehovah’s spirit-directed organization.
———
I want to sincerely apologize about my behavior. I am being held on a different standard then others on this board because I do represent Jehovah’s Witnesses. I have to remember that one person acting in an arrogant manner does not give me allowance to do the same. Thank you for your post in which you did remind me of my Christian personality and how it is to be a part of me in all situations. I appreciate it.
———-
Also, when I do not provide answers it is because I do not have enough information on the subject to provide an adequate defense or I have already touched on it and the answer was not accepted.
———-
———-
like you, I also get frustrated when words are misused. Words like Glory, that Jehovah suddenly shared with Jesus after He claims otherwise in Isaiah 42:8.
———-
Isaiah 42:8 does not contradict John 17:5. Jesus had glory before he came to earth and was requesting that glory again when he returned to heaven.
———-
———-
Words like The, that suddenly disappear like in Isaiah 9:6. Words like God, that suddenly lose their capital G (Isaiah 9:6 again).
———
Jesus is Mighty God. I do not see how that presents a problem.
———-
———-
Words like Idols and False Prophets, that are apparently only present in every other organization other than the WTS.
———-
Idol: A graven image or representation of anything that is revered. Jehovah’s Witnesses have none of those in their Kingdom Halls. Mormon churches do not have idols in their churches, either.
———-
———-
Eric: I just want to let you know, If those quotes at any time said, “we are inspired and receive divine utterances from Jehovah God Himself” I would try to answer that to the best of my ability. Quotes taken out of context and that are presented as meaning one things while actually saying another I will not post. I have had the “1972 Watchtower says:” used against me more then once.
———-
———-
Everyone: I have tried to answer all allegations brought up against me. I do agree with your assessments of Maribel, though. She is sweet, mild-tempered person and I hope that Jehovah’s spirit will help me to be like that soon. I have been working for years to make myself not get worked up if I get attacked. Again, I have more work to do. I appreciate your confronting me, tactfully, about it!

Prayers,
Shawn

Shawn,

I located a reference of shared glory between Jehovah and Christ for you to consider:

Revelation 5:13-14 And every creature that is in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, I heard saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” 14 And the four living creatures went saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped. (NWT)

If you would like, I would be more than willing to post the entire article and let everyone decide for themselves, but the WTS clearly compares itself to Ezekiel in all prophetic aspects.

You still have not addressed the use of Everlasting in the OT in Isaiah 9:6.

You also have not responded to how to reconcile your hermeneutic of Isaiah 43:11 with John 14:6.

Also, Denita apologized publicly for her behavior, wouldn’t accepting it and not further crucifying her for her emotional outburst be more Christlike?

Idols are anything that takes importance over Jehovah. Sports in America is a huge idol, and organizations, such as the WTS or different Christian denominations can be idolized as well. An idol is your heart focusing on something other than Jehovah.

I also question the intentions and honesty of someone’s heart who refuses to allow comments on their blog that counter what they have to say.

I do not have time to go through every question the JW commenters have posted right now, but I look forward to when I am off of work for my weekend to sitting down and working on a concise response to as many of them as I can. Using only Scripture and no other source (commentaries or other people’s teaching). When applicable, I will hold up as an example what the WTS teaches from their publications.

I located a reference of shared glory between Jehovah and Christ for you to consider:

Revelation 5:13-14 And every creature that is in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, I heard saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” 14 And the four living creatures went saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped. (NWT)
———
I give glory to both of them. However, the glory meant for only Jehovah is what he will not share. That is why the 24 Elders say, “You are worthy, Lord our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things and BECAUSE OF YOUR WILL they existed and were created.” (Revelation 4:11) That glory can be given to no one else.
———-
———-
If you would like, I would be more than willing to post the entire article and let everyone decide for themselves, but the WTS clearly compares itself to Ezekiel in all prophetic aspects.
———-
The work being done through the organization today is paralleled by the work Ezekiel did in his day. I do not really know what you are talking about. That is all I can really think of.
———-
———-
You still have not addressed the use of Everlasting in the OT in Isaiah 9:6.
———-
The term OH’LAM in Hebrew is used for Jehovah in such places as Psalm 90:2 where it says in the NIV that he is from “everlasting to everlasting.” The NWT says “time indefinite to time indefinite.” NCV says, “you have always been and you always will be.” CEV says, “You have always been God.”
The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 9:6 is ‘ADH. That denotes “unlimited future time, everlastingness, eternity.” Many Bible translations can be confusing on this because they translate both terms the same but they both have different meanings. Jesus was not our “Everlasting Father” from the beginning. On the other hand, Jehovah was “from OH’LAM to OH’LAM” or “always was good and always will be God.” The NWT is one of the translations that actually shows the difference between the two words.
———
———
You also have not responded to how to reconcile your hermeneutic of Isaiah 43:11 with John 14:6.
———
I don’t understand what Isaiah 43:11 and John 14:6 have to do with each other. Am I missing something?
———
———
Denita apologized publicly for her behavior, wouldn’t accepting it and not further crucifying her for her emotional outburst be more Christlike?
———
I don’t understand what I did. I apologized for my emotional outburst and thanked her for calling me on it. How am I crucifying her? Or are you speaking out about how I pointed out each point she made one by one and answered it? The only thing I was doing was explaining myself and trying to help her to see that I was not the only one who reacted like that. Others (and I will not name names) acted the same way but that person wasn’t called out for it. I apologize if what I said came off wrong for any reason.
———
———
I also question the intentions and honesty of someone’s heart who refuses to allow comments on their blog that counter what they have to say.
———
Eric, I thought I was clear. If you presented contradicting statements to anything in my blog I would post it and answer it. As far as I saw, you just posted all of the instances where the Society did exactly what I admitted they did–misinterpret Bible texts, just like many, many other religious leaders and organizations. There is no reason to post all of those texts where they had wrong expectations…it served no useful purpose. Again, if you show me something that says, “This is what Jehovah has said” or something of that nature I would post it and answer it.
———
———
All of you are in my prayers,
Shawn

Shawn,

In Revelation 5:13-14 the same glory and praise is being given to Jehovah and Christ, no matter how you try to twist English or Greek grammar, if two people are given the same thing from someone, they are sharing it. Also, referencing your Revelation 4:11 quote, how were all things created… through Christ. John 1:3, Colossians 1:16. The NWT adds [other] in Colossians 1:16 (but not John 1:3…) which is not in, nor implied in the Greek.

Ezekiel’s work included being the mouthpiece of Jehovah and that article equates the WTS with all of Ezekiel’s work. Simple math here: Ezekiel’s work = prophet and Prophet; WTS = Ezekiel’s work (according to that article); therefore WTS = prophet and Prophet.

Actually, one of the bits I commented on your blog has the WTS stating that the date was set by Jehovah. And no, you were not clear, since your response on my site never mentioned “If you presented contradicting statements to anything in my blog I would post it and answer it.” You just dismissed it out of hand: “I chose not to use that quote because it really has no bearing as to whether or not they were inspired of God.” Is it fear of a reprimand from an elder for allowing posting of embarrassing WTS history on your otherwise completely WTS supporting site that keeps you from allowing the comment?

If you wish to be honest, please follow the example of the kind gentleman running this site; he has not refused the posting of any comment on this debate.

As to the NWT rendering of Isaiah 9:6 [And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace], what pray tell does eternal mean to you?

Your average English dictionary defines eternal as: 1. without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing (opposed to temporal ): eternal life.
2. perpetual; ceaseless; endless: eternal quarreling; eternal chatter.
3. enduring; immutable: eternal principles.
4. Metaphysics. existing outside all relations of time; not subject to change.

Still, this adjective is reserved for Jehovah and His works only in the OT.

Shawn,

I’ll try to walkthrough the Isaiah 43:11/John 14:6 puzzle here again.
—–
—–
First, you stated: “Last, Isaiah 43:11 does say that there is no Savior but Jehovah. However, is this chapter speaking to everyone? No. It is speaking to Israel. To Israel Jehovah is the only Savior.” Your hermeneutic for handling the passage is that since Jehovah is only talking to ethnic Israel, then the only Savior to ethnic Israel can be Jehovah.
—–
—–
Let’s break this down a little further and look at Malachi 3:6 “For I am Jehovah; I have not changed. And YOU are sons of Jacob; YOU have not come to YOUR finish.” (NWT) Jehovah’s character does not change. Therefore, if once He was to ethnic Israel the only Savior, then He is the only savior for all times.
—–
—–
Let us now remember that Scripture cannot be broken. John 14:6 “Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” flies completely against that hermeneutic (if Jehovah and Christ are not one). Like I stated: “There are not two different Saviors. Especially when οὐδεὶς in the Greek plainly is no one (the accusative form, οὐδέν means: nothing (MT 5.13); (b) to refer to invalid concepts, worthless, of no account, meaningless; making it quite clear who can be saved outside of Christ).
—–
—–
To continue to break it down: What is the Gospel? Paul sums it up well in 1 Timothy 1:15 “Faithful and deserving of full acceptance is the saying that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.” (NWT)
—–
With this we have Jesus as Savior, not Jehovah.
—–
In Acts 13:23 we have “From the offspring of this [man] according to his promise God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus” (NWT). Here we have Paul stating directly that Jesus, not Jehovah, is Israel’s Savior and Barnabas did not correct him.
—–
—–
Revelation 14:6 states “And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare as glad tidings to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people” (NWT). An everlasting gospel is an unchanging gospel. There is only one gospel and only one Savior, Christ Jesus. If you used your own hermeneutic that Jehovah is the only savior to ethnic Israel, then you have proved that Jesus is Jehovah due to the fact that Israel can have only one Savior… is the Savior Jehovah or Christ? This is when you have to apply John 14:6.
—–
—–
I close with Romans 1:16 “For I am not ashamed of the good news; it is, in fact, God’s power for salvation to everyone having faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek” (NWT).
—–
Good news is the gospel, which is the way of salvation. Again, is your salvation through Jehovah or Jesus? The NT states over and over again that it is through Jesus. The Gospel is “for the Jew first and also to the Greek”. Therefore the same Gospel is being presented to the Jew and the Greek. If Isaiah 43:11 states that Jehovah is the way of salvation for ethnic Israel (the Jews) then Jehovah is the way of salvation for the Greek (applying your hermeneutic). But that is not how the NT authors state it. I humbly point you back to 1 Timothy 1:15 “Faithful and deserving of full acceptance is the saying that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.” (NWT)

Here is another one to think about.
—–
—–
Psalm 49:7-9 ” Not one of them can by any means redeem even a brother,
Nor give to God a ransom for him; (And the redemption price of their soul is so precious
That it has ceased to time indefinite) That he should still live forever [and] not see the pit.” (NWT). Jesus could not have been a mere man.
—–
—–
However, Paul states twice in Romans 5 that Christ is a man.
—–
So, we have Christ as a man, but also something more since all men sin, and Psalm 49:7-9 states that a mere man cannot pay the ransom price for sin for another.
—–
Now I know that the WTS teaches that Jesus is actually Michael the Archangel, but Hebrews 1:5-14 counters that claim: “For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father”? And again: “I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son”? But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.”
Also, with reference to the angels he says: “And he makes his angels spirits, and his public servants a flame of fire.” But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners.” And: “You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands. They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually; and just like an outer garment they will all grow old, and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and they will be changed, but you are the same, and your years will never run out.”
But with reference to which one of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”? Are they not all spirits for public service, sent forth to minister for those who are going to inherit salvation?” (NWT)
—–
So Christ has to be something other than an angel, and He has to be something more than a mere man. So what could He possibly be?

If, by Psalm 49:7-9 we know that a mere man cannot save due to the fact that he sins, what is the status of Jesus. Is he good? For Him to save He must be, that is the only way to overcome the nullification of sin in someone’s life for salvation.
—–
—–
Let’s see what Jesus has to say about being good: Mark 10:17-18 “And as he was going out on his way, a certain man ran up and fell upon his knees before him and put the question to him: “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?” Jesus said to him: “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God.” (NWT)
—–
The WTS uses this passage to say “ha, Jesus himself is claiming that only God can be good and the man who asked him should not refer to Jesus as ‘good teacher’”.
—–
The fatal flaw in this argument is that if Christ is not the “good teacher”, he cannot be the substitutionary lamb without blemish, that atones for the sins of mankind and allows the elect to be counted righteous before Jehovah. If Christ is not the “good teacher”, then He sinned. What does Scripture say about Christ and Him sinning?

Hey Eric,had to chime in because again,the lies are hard to ignore..

You said:In Revelation 5:13-14 the same glory and praise is being given to Jehovah and Christ, no matter how you try to twist English or Greek grammar, if two people are given the same thing from someone, they are sharing it.

well,Eric,what about here:1 Chronicles 29:20: And David said to all the assembly, Now bless Yahweh your God. And all the assembly blessed Jehovah, the God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshiped Yahweh, and the king.”..so by your reasoning,am I to assume the king is thought of as the same God Yahweh is?And no I’m not comparing Jesus to an earthly king because he is second most high over all,but your standards for being Jehovah are skewed.

Don’t you think the scripture here roverbs 8:30:Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him would seem to correlate with this one:1 Corinthians 8:6:for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom everything came into being and for whom we live. And there is only one Lord, Jesus the Messiah, through whom everything came into being …AND all the others that prove he was a tool,an agent that His God and father used in the creation of all (yes OTHER) things?The word “other” is absolutely implied in Col ch 1 because we know he didn’t create either Jehovah or himself..so other is an acceptable word to bracket there.Jesus was possessed by Jehovah,a servant OF Jehovah,an agent of Jehovah and a son of Jehovah.Can’t dance around it.

If the WT ever claimed to be used by Jehovah to spread the word it is exactly for that..to spread the bible’s message and truth..When they have gone beyond the bible with interpretation and date setting etc…they have ALWAYS claimed that they DID NOT KNOW.That they are fallible.And that is a fact.

As for the word eternal,we can have eternal life..if we get it and say “I have eternal life” do we suddenly become God too?The fallen angels were “from eternity”..didn’t thay have a beginning?The earth is said to be from time indefinite if I’m not mistaken..did it have a beginning?

As for savior,anyone Jehovah uses to save through can be called savior.Who sent Jesus to save?Would Jesus have been able to save if he hadn’t been sent?
Here’s a point from my blog:
1 samuel 23:5:David was the saviour of the people of Keilah.(bile in basic English)
Judges 3:9:Then the people of Israel cried out to the LORD for help. The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Othniel, son of Caleb’s younger brother Kenaz.15The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Ehud, a left-handed man from the tribe of Benjamin.(God’s world translation)
Isaiah 19:20:he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them
Jude 25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus the Messiah(explains how they are both savior)
By trinitarian standards,anyone Jehovah sent forth to save or rescue his ppl could be called almighty God.

I would be interested in finding out what you think Jesus preached about most ?Was it his own name and his own death?Or was it the kingdom of God and his father’s name?Aren’t we to follow in his footsteps?Should our entire gospel message be Jesus or should it go beyond him all the way to the kingdom message and his God and father’s name?If Jesus opened the way for us to reach Jehovah,why should we stop at Jesus and assume there is no one to reach through him?If Jesus is your “all in all” then you are ignoring HIS “all in all”.That might be dangerous.

As for what you said about Christ not being an angel,he is actually called an angel in the septuagint at Isaish 9:6 and I think he was the angel of Yahweh in the OT.(that would harmonize with his being the “word of God”,as chief messenger)When Jehovah said those words to him,he wasn’t an angel..and he certainly wasn’t a God-man.He was a miraculously conceived human being who was about to be exalted above his partners!Now let’s think about this for a minute..who would his partners be?And if Jesus was Almighty God would it really be appropriate to say he has partners that Almighty God will exalt him above ONLY BECAUSE of his obedience and faithfulness and conquering of the world and saving man?And if one Almighty God exalts another Almighty God above his partners how many almighty Gods is that exactly?I don’t think Jehovah has partners..I think he has servants and sons and subordinates.I don’t think Jehovah can learn obedience and be exalted,but apparently you do.

Jesus was “the second Adam”..Now if one perfect man had the power to cause the fall of all men then another perfect man ,on Jehovah’s scales of absolute justice ,had the power to buy back the lives that the other had lost.Remember,as Maribel poignantly pointed out earlier,God cannot die and you are robbing us of atonement ..because you don’t believe Jesus REALLY died do you?Just a human nature but Jesus was REALLY alive siomewhere right?If Jesus,all of him,wasn’t dead for three whole days in that tomb,not only are you preaching a different Jesus,but your atonement is null and void.

Blessings to you in the name of Jesus

I cannot believe that I am having to write this, my brain literally hurts thinking about it…
—–
—–
Kellie,
Are you really so ignorant of Scripture to not realize that the Scripture passages I was quoting regarding the Savior concerns the salvation of men’s souls? Of course there were physical saviors in the Bible beyond Jehovah, but that is not what the passages I quoted were referring to.
—–
The most infant Christian knows what and Who Christ saves sinners from. Your pulling this stunt either shows that you truly are ignorant of Scripture, or that you are trying to pull a “Three Card Monty” routine to misdirect the conversation. Unfortunately, I have seen this tactic used countless times by other JWs in the past when they do not want to deal with a question honestly.
—–
—–
Yes, I do in fact believe that Christ died. I also believe His words in John 10:17-18 “Διὰ τοῦτό με ὁ πατὴρ ἀγαπᾷ ὅτι ἐγὼ τίθημι τὴν ψυχήν μου, ἵνα πάλιν λάβω αὐτήν. οὐδεὶς αἴρει αὐτὴν ἀπʼ ἐμοῦ, ἀλλʼ ἐγὼ τίθημι αὐτὴν Iἀπʼ ἐμαυτοῦ. ἐξουσίαν ἔχω θεῖναι αὐτήν, καὶ ἐξουσίαν ἔχω πάλιν λαβεῖν αὐτήν· ταύτην τὴν ἐντολὴν ἔλαβον παρὰ τοῦ πατρός μου.”, which is poorly translated in the NWT as “This is why the Father loves me, because I surrender my soul, in order that I may receive it again. No man has taken it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative. I have authority to surrender it, and I have authority to receive it again. The commandment on this I received from my Father.”
—–
The NWT translates λάβω and λαβεῖν in the passive sense [λαμβάνω impf. ἐλάμβανον; fut. mid. λήμψομαι (and λήψομαι); 2aor. ἔλαβον; pf. εἴληφα; (1) active, as bringing under one’s control take; (a) with the hand take hold of, grasp (AC 27.35); (b) take away, remove (RV 3.11); (c) take for oneself, take into possession (LU 19.12); (d) as being seized by illness, demon attack, strong emotion come on, seize (LU 5.26); (e) as taking a due portion of something, as taxes, tithes, or collections receive, accept, collect (MT 17.24); (f) as taking to oneself someone’s words, teaching, or testimony receive, accept, come to believe (MT 13.20); (g) figuratively take advantage of, exploit (2C 11.20); (2) passive, as being a recipient of something receive; (a) materially receive, get, acquire (2C 11.8); (b) spiritually, as being a recipient of God’s grace, forgiveness, life, etc. receive, obtain (RO 1.5); (c) be selected, be chosen from one or more alternatives (HE 5.1)] even though ἐξουσίαν ἔχω (I have the authority) is in no way passive. The passive version of the lemma λαμβάνω is ἔλαβον which is properly translated at the end of the passage in the NWT.
—–
A more accurate translation would be: “For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” (ESV) This translation handles the verbs according to correct Greek grammar.
—–
—–
Now I must bid everyone adieu for awhile. Shepherding my family, work and dealing with house damage (from the hail storm that blew through Central Texas last week) will be taking up my time for the next few days. But I do look forward to having some free time to honestly respond to the questions I have not had time to answer yet. While this debate has been fun, there are other priorities in my life beyond the internet.
—–
Until later this week, Jehovah willing…

Your brother in Christ,

-Eric

Also, referencing your Revelation 4:11 quote, how were all things created… through Christ.
——
I am not going to answer all of that because, frankly, I am getting annoyed at how I am being talked to, (so condescending, and, do I note a hint of arrogance and aggravation in your tone?) but I will answer my favorites.
–
Yes! All things were created by God through Christ. All things are out of God through Jesus Christ.-1 Corinthians 8:6; Hebrews 1:2
——
——
Isaiah 43:11-No other savior but Jehovah
——
If Jehovah is the only savior why is Jesus called our savior? Jude 25 answers: “God, our savior THROUGH (substitute for italics) Jesus Christ our Lord.” Kellie already answered that for you but you did not accept it.
However, think of it like this: If I gave a donation to a charity that really needed it or all the what? (babies/animals/elderly in their care) would die but I sent someone else to deliver, I made the donation through another person. It is only natural that the one who made the donation receive thanks from the charity owners and I receive thanks for making it. You don’t have to like it but that is the way the Bible presents the relationship between Jehovah and Christ.
——
——
Psalm 49:7-9 ” Not one of them can by any means redeem even a brother,
Nor give to God a ransom for him; (And the redemption price of their soul is so precious
That it has ceased to time indefinite) That he should still live forever [and] not see the pit.” (NWT). Jesus could not have been a mere man.
——
You should no better then that! Of course Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t believe Christ was a “mere man” but he was the Son of God! The precious only-begotten Son of God, or as everyone is putting it “the one and only son of God” which contradicts Scriptures such as Job 38:7 and others that speak of Sons of God–but okay, if you want to believe that Jesus is God’s “one and only son” that is your prerogative. I prefer to keep the harmony in the Bible instead of doing whatever I can to elevate Jesus Christ. Changing “only-begotten” to “one and only” is a nasty trick that has not fooled God.
——
——
Hebrews 1:5-14
——
Nice how you start straight from verse 5 and skip “pesky” verse 4. Christ had to have been lower then the angels even when he ascended into heaven again because Heb. 1:4 says that he has become better then the angels by INHERITING (sub. Italics) a name more excellent then theirs. He did not have that better name to begin with, just like Philippians 2:9.
I also find it funny how all through your posts you are trying to detract from Jesus’ humanity by elevating him above that. It makes me sad.
Anyway, I do not know why Paul said “to which of the angels has he ever said.” Perhaps it is because those things were prophetically stated before Jesus came to earth but if you look at the entire context they were not literally said until AFTER Jesus ascended to heaven. Therefore, since he had already “inherited a name better then the angels” those things were said to someone better then an angel. Same with Hebrews 1:13. Those words were spoken after Jesus’ ascension and, therefore, after he inherited the better name then the angels. He was now above the angels.
——
——
Mark 10:17-18
——
If you deny what Jesus said, that only God is good after telling that man not to call him good, you are again contradicted Scripture. Let me show you again: Christ was called good. He told the man NOT to call him good and then said that only God was good. Therefore, Christ is not God because he would not even call himself good. Why would he say this? Jesus was perfect (1 Peter 2:22) (but having seen what you are doing now I would be willing to bet that you would take his perfection away from him if it would help further the Trinity. You are already detracting from his humanity and now his own statements. Ha! I have too much respect for Jesus to just throw some of his statements aside like you do) but Jesus was saying that compared to God, NOBODY is good. Jehovah is the embodiment of good. Not even Jesus would have that title applied to him. What a wonderfully humble savior we have, willing to give all the glory to his Heavenly Father! Praise Jesus! Worship Jehovah! Hallelujah!
——
——
I think I have answered all of your questions to my satisfaction (though probably not to yours) and since you are probably going to just post more arguments. I do beg of you, Stop ignoring Scriptures if they don’t fit with your ideas. That is a dangerous thing to do. Jesus said, “You make the word of God invalid by your tradition which you handed down and you do many things similar to this.” (Mark 7:13) He was talking to the pharisees but I think he’d apply it to you, too.

Eric, thank you for soldiering on.

Grace and Peace to you.

Eric,I can only assume that you have a mortal Almighty God if you think Jesus is Almighty God and that he died.truly unbiblical!

AS for savior,again,the bible doesn’t leave us in the dark how Jesus saved,he gave his life for us and he is distinguished FROM the ONE WHO SENT HIM to save,and not as one of three persons in the same God he is,but as a son of the one he called his father and the only true God.How you twist the scriptures to fit your philosopohy!Does the bible say Jehovah sent himself or his son?Pretty simple concept,really.

An educational video on the human Jesus.

Agape-
Maribel

Just wanted to add a “disclaimer” about the video that a posted:

**NOTE: This educational video is not affiliated with Jehovah’s Witnesses or The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. JW’s believe that Jesus was God’s first creation, and that God created everything through Jesus… and thus he had a pre-human existence. (1Cort. 8:6)

To all those commenting or reading this debate, I have posted a response to questions that were asked of me at my blog. Due to the length and HTML coding required to keep things readable,it is posted it here.
—–
—–
This is my last new post because I wish to take the example in John 21:25 to heart. To continue bringing up new defenses would keep this debate going until the end of this world.
—–
—–
However, I will take the time to handle rebuttals to my statements.

Oops, flubbed the link HTML… sorry!
—–
Here’s the correct link

Ok…
—–
Demian, I think we have borked the HTML on this comment thread…
—–
Here’s the link in the old fashioned way…
http://wttf.blogspot.com/2009/04/fallen-flawed-reader-dissent-christ-is.html
—–
Sheesh, fun with modern technology. Maybe we should go back to clay tablets and pointed reeds.