Comments on: Reader Dissent: Christ Is Not God

By: Eric

Eric — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 22:10:47 +0000

Ok…
—–
Demian, I think we have borked the HTML on this comment thread…
—–
Here’s the link in the old fashioned way…
http://wttf.blogspot.com/2009/04/fallen-flawed-reader-dissent-christ-is.html
—–
Sheesh, fun with modern technology. Maybe we should go back to clay tablets and pointed reeds.

By: Eric

Eric — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 22:06:35 +0000

Oops, flubbed the link HTML… sorry!
—–
Here’s the correct link

By: Eric

Eric — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 20:35:46 +0000

To all those commenting or reading this debate, I have posted a response to questions that were asked of me at my blog. Due to the length and HTML coding required to keep things readable,it is posted it here.
—–
—–
This is my last new post because I wish to take the example in John 21:25 to heart. To continue bringing up new defenses would keep this debate going until the end of this world.
—–
—–
However, I will take the time to handle rebuttals to my statements.

By: Maribel

Maribel — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:02:02 +0000

Just wanted to add a “disclaimer” about the video that a posted:

**NOTE: This educational video is not affiliated with Jehovah’s Witnesses or The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. JW’s believe that Jesus was God’s first creation, and that God created everything through Jesus… and thus he had a pre-human existence. (1Cort. 8:6)

By: Maribel

Maribel — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:38:58 +0000

An educational video on the human Jesus. Agape- Maribel

By: Kellie

Kellie — Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:54:44 +0000

AS for savior,again,the bible doesn’t leave us in the dark how Jesus saved,he gave his life for us and he is distinguished FROM the ONE WHO SENT HIM to save,and not as one of three persons in the same God he is,but as a son of the one he called his father and the only true God.How you twist the scriptures to fit your philosopohy!Does the bible say Jehovah sent himself or his son?Pretty simple concept,really.

By: Kellie

Kellie — Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:51:33 +0000

Eric,I can only assume that you have a mortal Almighty God if you think Jesus is Almighty God and that he died.truly unbiblical!

By: Van H. Edwards

Van H. Edwards — Mon, 30 Mar 2009 16:22:50 +0000

Eric, thank you for soldiering on.

Grace and Peace to you.

By: Shawn

Shawn — Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:13:51 +0000

Also, referencing your Revelation 4:11 quote, how were all things created… through Christ.
——
I am not going to answer all of that because, frankly, I am getting annoyed at how I am being talked to, (so condescending, and, do I note a hint of arrogance and aggravation in your tone?) but I will answer my favorites.
–
Yes! All things were created by God through Christ. All things are out of God through Jesus Christ.-1 Corinthians 8:6; Hebrews 1:2
——
——
Isaiah 43:11-No other savior but Jehovah
——
If Jehovah is the only savior why is Jesus called our savior? Jude 25 answers: “God, our savior THROUGH (substitute for italics) Jesus Christ our Lord.” Kellie already answered that for you but you did not accept it.
However, think of it like this: If I gave a donation to a charity that really needed it or all the what? (babies/animals/elderly in their care) would die but I sent someone else to deliver, I made the donation through another person. It is only natural that the one who made the donation receive thanks from the charity owners and I receive thanks for making it. You don’t have to like it but that is the way the Bible presents the relationship between Jehovah and Christ.
——
——
Psalm 49:7-9 ” Not one of them can by any means redeem even a brother,
Nor give to God a ransom for him; (And the redemption price of their soul is so precious
That it has ceased to time indefinite) That he should still live forever [and] not see the pit.” (NWT). Jesus could not have been a mere man.
——
You should no better then that! Of course Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t believe Christ was a “mere man” but he was the Son of God! The precious only-begotten Son of God, or as everyone is putting it “the one and only son of God” which contradicts Scriptures such as Job 38:7 and others that speak of Sons of God–but okay, if you want to believe that Jesus is God’s “one and only son” that is your prerogative. I prefer to keep the harmony in the Bible instead of doing whatever I can to elevate Jesus Christ. Changing “only-begotten” to “one and only” is a nasty trick that has not fooled God.
——
——
Hebrews 1:5-14
——
Nice how you start straight from verse 5 and skip “pesky” verse 4. Christ had to have been lower then the angels even when he ascended into heaven again because Heb. 1:4 says that he has become better then the angels by INHERITING (sub. Italics) a name more excellent then theirs. He did not have that better name to begin with, just like Philippians 2:9.
I also find it funny how all through your posts you are trying to detract from Jesus’ humanity by elevating him above that. It makes me sad.
Anyway, I do not know why Paul said “to which of the angels has he ever said.” Perhaps it is because those things were prophetically stated before Jesus came to earth but if you look at the entire context they were not literally said until AFTER Jesus ascended to heaven. Therefore, since he had already “inherited a name better then the angels” those things were said to someone better then an angel. Same with Hebrews 1:13. Those words were spoken after Jesus’ ascension and, therefore, after he inherited the better name then the angels. He was now above the angels.
——
——
Mark 10:17-18
——
If you deny what Jesus said, that only God is good after telling that man not to call him good, you are again contradicted Scripture. Let me show you again: Christ was called good. He told the man NOT to call him good and then said that only God was good. Therefore, Christ is not God because he would not even call himself good. Why would he say this? Jesus was perfect (1 Peter 2:22) (but having seen what you are doing now I would be willing to bet that you would take his perfection away from him if it would help further the Trinity. You are already detracting from his humanity and now his own statements. Ha! I have too much respect for Jesus to just throw some of his statements aside like you do) but Jesus was saying that compared to God, NOBODY is good. Jehovah is the embodiment of good. Not even Jesus would have that title applied to him. What a wonderfully humble savior we have, willing to give all the glory to his Heavenly Father! Praise Jesus! Worship Jehovah! Hallelujah!
——
——
I think I have answered all of your questions to my satisfaction (though probably not to yours) and since you are probably going to just post more arguments. I do beg of you, Stop ignoring Scriptures if they don’t fit with your ideas. That is a dangerous thing to do. Jesus said, “You make the word of God invalid by your tradition which you handed down and you do many things similar to this.” (Mark 7:13) He was talking to the pharisees but I think he’d apply it to you, too.

By: Eric

Eric — Mon, 30 Mar 2009 13:02:39 +0000

I cannot believe that I am having to write this, my brain literally hurts thinking about it…
—–
—–
Kellie,
Are you really so ignorant of Scripture to not realize that the Scripture passages I was quoting regarding the Savior concerns the salvation of men’s souls? Of course there were physical saviors in the Bible beyond Jehovah, but that is not what the passages I quoted were referring to.
—–
The most infant Christian knows what and Who Christ saves sinners from. Your pulling this stunt either shows that you truly are ignorant of Scripture, or that you are trying to pull a “Three Card Monty” routine to misdirect the conversation. Unfortunately, I have seen this tactic used countless times by other JWs in the past when they do not want to deal with a question honestly.
—–
—–
Yes, I do in fact believe that Christ died. I also believe His words in John 10:17-18 “Διὰ τοῦτό με ὁ πατὴρ ἀγαπᾷ ὅτι ἐγὼ τίθημι τὴν ψυχήν μου, ἵνα πάλιν λάβω αὐτήν. οὐδεὶς αἴρει αὐτὴν ἀπʼ ἐμοῦ, ἀλλʼ ἐγὼ τίθημι αὐτὴν Iἀπʼ ἐμαυτοῦ. ἐξουσίαν ἔχω θεῖναι αὐτήν, καὶ ἐξουσίαν ἔχω πάλιν λαβεῖν αὐτήν· ταύτην τὴν ἐντολὴν ἔλαβον παρὰ τοῦ πατρός μου.”, which is poorly translated in the NWT as “This is why the Father loves me, because I surrender my soul, in order that I may receive it again. No man has taken it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative. I have authority to surrender it, and I have authority to receive it again. The commandment on this I received from my Father.”
—–
The NWT translates λάβω and λαβεῖν in the passive sense [λαμβάνω impf. ἐλάμβανον; fut. mid. λήμψομαι (and λήψομαι); 2aor. ἔλαβον; pf. εἴληφα; (1) active, as bringing under one’s control take; (a) with the hand take hold of, grasp (AC 27.35); (b) take away, remove (RV 3.11); (c) take for oneself, take into possession (LU 19.12); (d) as being seized by illness, demon attack, strong emotion come on, seize (LU 5.26); (e) as taking a due portion of something, as taxes, tithes, or collections receive, accept, collect (MT 17.24); (f) as taking to oneself someone’s words, teaching, or testimony receive, accept, come to believe (MT 13.20); (g) figuratively take advantage of, exploit (2C 11.20); (2) passive, as being a recipient of something receive; (a) materially receive, get, acquire (2C 11.8); (b) spiritually, as being a recipient of God’s grace, forgiveness, life, etc. receive, obtain (RO 1.5); (c) be selected, be chosen from one or more alternatives (HE 5.1)] even though ἐξουσίαν ἔχω (I have the authority) is in no way passive. The passive version of the lemma λαμβάνω is ἔλαβον which is properly translated at the end of the passage in the NWT.
—–
A more accurate translation would be: “For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” (ESV) This translation handles the verbs according to correct Greek grammar.
—–
—–
Now I must bid everyone adieu for awhile. Shepherding my family, work and dealing with house damage (from the hail storm that blew through Central Texas last week) will be taking up my time for the next few days. But I do look forward to having some free time to honestly respond to the questions I have not had time to answer yet. While this debate has been fun, there are other priorities in my life beyond the internet.
—–
Until later this week, Jehovah willing…

Your brother in Christ,

-Eric