Fallen and Flawed

If this was a class for married couple I have no problem with that but if this is on a Sunday morning, we have issues. How was Christ glorified?

I don’t know…that’s a great question. I’ll have to go back and check. Anybody else remember?

While Driscoll is a preacher, he is also a pastor. And the role of a pastor is to care for and feed his flock. In that role, there is clearly an appropriate time and place to discuss sex.
In fact, with rare exceptions like Driscoll, most pastors won’t go near the subject. And it’s clearly one that needs this kind of attention, given our culture. As Christians all things have been redeemed, including sex in marriage.
Now, I’ve not heard his teachings on the topic, but if the objections that have been raised have to do with using a bit of salty language, then let’s keep in mind who he said was his audience–20-something guys. I would say that “to the Greeks he was speaking Greek.”
I also watched and listened to Driscoll’s entire “Desiring God” message and I personally didn’t see what the “crass language” issue was at all. He was quoting a verse that actually said what he articulated. I personally have a problem with Christians who bristol at the hint of anything “salty.” Not that I’m condoning swearing like a sailor, but I also believe we need to be aware of the times we are living in and sometimes we have call shit, shit. While there are verses that tell us not to use crude speech, I also think there are degrees of crude speech, and what may be crude to me may not be crude to you. But let’s move on to the larger issue at hand here… is Driscoll preaching Christ crucified? Absolutely! Is he going to answer every critic? No. And if I were him I wouldn’t either. Watch the “Desiring God” video all the way to the end when he talks about praying for the shepherds. Driscoll is dealing with a LOT in the city in which his church is located. I’m not excusing him, I’m merely trying to put things in proper perspective.
While those who preach and teach are held accountable to a higher degree than the rest of us, I think it’s much too easy to sit back and fire critiques at someone who is as visible as he is. I saw and heard the heart of a man of God in the video I watched. If God wants to speak to him about his language, I trust Mr. Driscoll will hear and obey.
Christ is glorified whenever something that was corrupted by Adam’s sin is renewed by Christ’s blood to it’s original and intended state. Sex included.

Richard: You said several good things I didn’t think about:
1. Look who he’s talking to. Great point. His audience is single 20 somethings.
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2. Some who bristol at the hint of saltiness. Was it the cutting words vid where Driscoll said, “Worldliness is wanting this age…and the last age?” Maybe it was a different one. So people harping back to the 50’s…well, are they longing for an age long gone? I think so.
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3. Is he going to answer every critic? You’re right: no. Could he? No. He’s not going to fight for what he doesn’t want to die for.
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4. He is dealing with a lot.
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I would recommend watching his Song of Solomon series. You couldn’t go wrong. I’d like to hear your feedback. Thanks Richard for the very insightful reply!

[...] Seriously though the debate centers around Mark Driscoll’s series on the Song of Solomon – the Peasant Princess.  This series [...]

I must say, if the issue is that Mark Driscoll was using his pulpit for sex-class rather than gospel, that’s ignoring the sermons.

Every single sermon of that series of which I listened presented the Gospel and actually used the Gospel for it’s basis of how marital relations should operate.

Isn’t the Gospel the basis for all we do?

Richard, you said:

Isn’t the Gospel the basis for all we do?

Indeed, that’s true. But I think what MacArthur is suggesting that the real issue is Driscoll manipulated the Song of Solomon to say things it wasn’t meant to say.

I have read the article by John MacArthur there, and with all due respect to Dr. MacArthur I feel he may have mis-represented Pastor Mark.

For instance, Dr. MacArthur says Mark told women in his church that Jesus commands them to perform a strip-tease for their husbands because the woman in Song of Solomon did.

This is not true…it was a joke. I know Dr. MacArthur doesn’t like Driscoll’s brand of humor, and that may be a more valid point. Maybe it is too far. But do not tell me Mark Driscoll was actually saying that in seriousness.

Throughout the series, and even in the sermon in question which MacArthur has quoted, Mark has repeatedly talked about how Song of Solomon is a text that is DESCRIBING something that happened, not PRESCRIBING activity for us to do.

He had even said, and I paraphrase, ‘ Men, you can’t just tell you wives to do this as much as you’d like to. It’s not a prescriptive text, it’s a descriptive text. Find the principal in it.’

The principal being that wives should take care of their husbands needs and vica-versa. That manifests itself in different ways.

I know MacArthur has issue with Driscoll for language and what MacArthur views as inappropriate jesting. THat’s fine, and maybe this joke was inappropriate. But to say Pastor Mark was using Song of Solomon to extort women into some sexuality they do not want is a just lying.

Thanks for the thoughts, Richard. I know I enjoyed Driscoll’s series…and don’t even recall the strip tease bit!…before MacArthur and Johnson leaned in on him. Now, I’m just curious about Driscoll’s response…I should probably go back and re-listen to his Songs series and judge MacArthur’s claims. Thank you for helping me thinking deeper on this, Richard.

Hey, good discussions always lead to deeper thinking.

It’s really disappointing, this situation between Driscoll and people like MacArthur, because I really really like and respect John MacArthur too. I just don’t agree with his critique of Pastor Mark.

One thing I do like to point out is that on Mark Driscoll’s blog on the website http://www.theresurgence.com he recently posted a blog praising John MacArthur as a great modern-day preacher.

This blog was posted after many of MacArthur’s harsh rebukes to Driscoll. Wether those rebukes are wrong or right, it shows Pastor Mark has definitely matured to be able to praise a person who has completely blasted him.

I know a time when Pastor Mark would have, instead, posted on MacArthur’s blog and cussed him out.

Richard, I agree with you. It is disappointing. And I recall the Resurgence post on MacArthur. Admirable, yes. Perhaps MacArthur and Co. can say their peace and move on. Replying to every response is distracting. And I don’t think a good way to model a ministry. Thanks for you thoughts.

I Googled “Mark Driscoll” to find out info, as he’ll be speaking at a church near me next month and I seemed to remember seeing some controversy about him. While I believe discernment is necessary, and I feel the comments here are fairly balanced, I’ve noticed that there are a lot of denunciatory people around on the web – some people on other blogs have variously denounced both Mark Driscoll and John MacArthur as heretics! I have some issues with John MacArthur, a great expository teacher, but he’s also very dogmatic and (my biggest difference of opinion with him) he rejects the charismata/ supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit (which I reckon we’ll need until Jesus returns!). Maybe it’s a case of “all truth and no Spirit, you dry up”?! It helps to remember that Jesus warned his disciples to “know” false teachers and false prophets by their fruit, but when it came to tares, Jesus basically said it’s not for his disciples to go round weeding out the tares – the time has not yet come. Paul also wrote about people preaching the Gospel with wrong motives, but that at least the Gospel was preached. Somehow, I feel some people lack the grace and agape that Christians need to manifest.
A great book I read years ago was “Witchhunt” by Bob and Gretchen Passantino. It was also a good manual on “straight and crooked thinking” for Christians (whereas the classic book Straight and Crooked Thinking was anti-faith, throwing the baby out with the bath-water).
A great guideline is Peter’s injunction to “always speak the truth in love”.
(My quotes are from memory, so may not be completely accurate).