Fallen and Flawed

Demian,
Given the heart of your topic, I think you left out some very important and extremely relevant biblical support for God’s omnipotence, in particular where you discuss Jesus’ supernatural acts. Namely the of casting out demons—a very direct and relevant defeat of Satan that we too can experience. In addition to the several instances where Jesus himself did so, in Luke 10:17-19, when Jesus sent out the seventy-two, they “returned with joy and said, ‘Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.’ He replied, ‘I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.”
God not only wants to defeat evil, He already did. Evil was defeated on Calvary. As Christians, we can walk confidently in this truth.

Richard: Beautiful reply. Not sure how I could’ve overlooked something so obvious. My bad. Thank you fleshing out the discussion.

Richard,

Is that why there is no evil in the world now?

Demian,

Why would God create evil in the first place only to destroy it later? What is the point of delaying this removal of evil? People suffer now and miss out on the alleged salvation now as a result of evil.

Eshu,
I didn’t say there wasn’t evil in the world, but that through Christ’s blood it is defeated in the life of each believer, not eliminated from the world. However, it will be eliminated when Christ returns.
Evil exists as a result of free will, which obviously even the angels have. Satan, the father of evil, made his choice, and has been given free reign for a time. But only for a time.
Eshu, are you asking these questions because you really want to know the answers, or are you asking them to merely take an opposing position?
If the answer is the former, and you’re sincere, ask God to open your spiritual eyes and He will. If the answer is the latter, then there’s really nothing I nor Demian can say to convince you otherwise.

The first example of evil I can think of in the Bible is Lucifer falling. He was free from a sin nature and God’s righthand Angel and still fell. So God must have created(?) evil so that his creations could have free choice. So will our free will go away once we are in heaven because evil will have been removed once and for all? OR will it be a continual choice? One that even God has to make…to do good or do evil. Thankfully he has chosen not to be tempted by evil and will do no evil….but isn’t that a choice HE has made and as our example expects us to make also.

as a Christian, I would have to be either incredibly foolish insane to believe in a God that could not (or eventually would not) defeat evil. if I believed and gave my days to serve a God who is not all powerful, then I should be pitied.

but this specific attribute of God brings me much comfort… to know that my God is not indifferent to the struggles and pains we experience, and greater than that, to know that He is not incapable of doing something about it. I believe that many of the psalmists found comfort there too (as expressed in the imprecatory psalms). and as Richard stated so clearly, the truth is that the devil is already a defeated foe. He was defeated on the cross. sure he still has power in this world, but I have no need to fear him, for I know my God has already defeated him. its as if he’s a roaring lion with no teeth. my security is not only in the fact that one day God will judge and punish evil, but in the fact that He has already defeated evil – that according to Romans 6, its power can not control me.

Demian, thank you for this blog. it is clear that much thought and preparation is behind each post. I leave every time challenged to more clearly think through my faith, to remember the hope that lies within me and to be confident in declaring that. thanks for your humility and example to me.

Emily

Emily,
If you’ve never suffered much evil in your life then I’m glad and you’re fortunate.
…
However, I don’t think that saying evil has “been defeated” or “it’s power cannot control me” does anything to help or comfort those who continue to suffer its effects.
…
Is the evil still in the world OK by God, even for the time being. In particular, is this kind of tragedy something God has seen fit not to prevent?
…
art – The Bible even says that God created evil. Though what it has to do with free choice is a whole ‘nother story.

eshu, i am aware that many have suffered much more than i, but i have experienced my share as well. i won’t elaborate, but please know that when i talk of “evil being defeated” it is not coming from someone who has not experienced pain and from someone who doesn’t on a daily basis continue to suffer its effects.
yet through it, knowing that my God does care is in fact something that is comforting to me…

Emily, if God was going to destroy evil entirely, why wouldn’t he have done it before Lucifer fell…he could have stopped the whole mess before it started! AND if he chose not to destroy evil at or before it’s conception…if he indeed created it…did he not do it for the purpose of allowing us ‘choice’….what choice IS there if we have only have ‘good’ to choose from? So you think that in the future he is going to destroy all evil so that we no longer are ‘free agents’…just robotic lovers? (I think that would be the insanity) I do not denny that God is all-powerful…but He makes choices for specific purposes. He could have created ‘beings’ that would only love Him because they had no free will. Do I believe He is going to lock up Satan and his cohorts and renew the heavens and the earth (take them out from under the curse of sin–yes)—which I agree He has ‘already’ done…and yet we do not fully realize the whole of redemption until later….it’s an ‘already done…but not yet’ proposition…but then we are back to where Lucifer started are we not? In heaven, with God, seeing Him face to face….and yet Lucifer had free choice to serve Him or elevate himself to be served (to be influenced and choose evil)

Emily,
Thanks for your reply. I guess if that thought helps you then it’s good for you. My concern would be that this might make you or people who share your belief, less concerned about putting a stop to evil in this world because they feel it’s already been taken care of.
…
Art,
Consider that there are plenty of evils which don’t exist and some which do. We are not completely free, otherwise we’d be gods. Sorry to excessive linkage, but this video details the question of evil better than I can explain it.

Eshu,
The evil that I believe we are ‘free’ from is the debt we owe for the consequence of sin, which according to the Bible is—eternal death. When Jesus died for us, he paid that debt/price (redeemed us) from having to die eternally….IF WE CHOOSE to accept His sacrifice for us….and then walk in obedience to the Father, we will live eternally in heaven (which is a long time…compared to our breath of life here). If we choose NOT to walk in obedience to the Father and are not repentant (asking for forgiveness) then there is no more sacrifice to be paid for us and we will choose to be judged ourselves…(not a good idea) so in that sense we ‘have been freed’ from sin/evil’s consequence for eternity…..that does not mean that evil does not exist here and now on this earth…for the prince of this world (Satan) is still on the loose ravaging the world…and man still has the sin nature in him and is still drawn away from obedience by his own lusts from within…so that is why I say we have ‘already been freed’ (for eternity—we need not face eternal death) and we are ‘not yet freed’ (from all of the evil on this earth and its effects–which aren’t pretty–hate, murder, sickness, etc). And it is a Christian’s responsibility to help those who are suffering and not turn a blind eye to the evil in this world. I do not have time to watch the video this a.m. but will do it tonight. Have a good day.

@Art: Good word. Not sure where I’ve picked this up, but I’ve heard salvation explained like this: Justification saves us from the penalty of sin, sanctification saves us from the power of sin and glorification saves us from the presence of sin. Take care and I appreciate your thoughts.

Eshu,
i understand your point and thank you for bringing up that topic. i should have mentioned it earlier. my belief that God will ultimately judge evil does not mean that I look idly by at evil and injustice. It does not mean that I (or God as expressed in your video) just casually shrugs off evil and pain.
…
let’s take for example a woman who is attacked, she is badly hurt and her young child who was with her is killed. Do i just simply tell her “God will ultimately judge, have hope in that.”? No, of course not. Legal justice should be sought as well, aware that such actions do carry consequences. It breaks my heart that evil does happen in this world. It breaks my heart that God does allow things like this. Because through those experiences come great pain and deep questioning. I have asked many of the questions such as “why God, would you allow this to happen?” “why don’t you punish sin already?” “why do you sovereignly allow such pain?” Along with many in the Bible, I too have questioned how long the Lord will allow evil to go unpunished. But I have also seen through these times, my faith in God grows. It grows because in those moments I come to understand that God is involved, that He is in control and He does care for my hurts.
…
Back to the analogy… often in this world justice is not found. All too often crimes go unpunished. Or if punishment is received, it seems inadequate or incomplete. What then? Take matters into your own hands? Avenge? Personally for me, the comfort comes in knowing that God will not allow sin to go unpunished. That even when there is no justice in this world, that He will ultimately judge evil. He will do what is right.
…
But there is another side to that coin as well… as soon as Christ comes to conquer evil, there will be no more opportunity for men to turn to Christ in faith, trusting His sacrifice as payment for their sin, trusting Jesus’ death on the cross to be the payment for the evil that they committed and the debts that they owed. When God unleashes His wrath on evil, there will not be an opportunity for men to repent and look to Christ as their hope. And God as a God rich in mercy and abounding in love desires for men to turn to him. He desires to give hope and life.
…
I cannot adequately even begin to describe the hope that the gospel has given to me. to me, one who deserved the wrath of God… one who was worthy of that judgment. Through faith, I have received mercy. And I can look to God in hope that He will judge evil, and in thanksgiving that by His mercy and grace alone, He judged the evils I’ve committed by the death of Jesus on the cross. I hope that answers your question, at least in part. Thanks for asking.

art,
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I follow your point, but I don’t think it really solves the PoE.

Emily,
Thanks for your comprehensive answer.
.
My humble opinion is that protecting people (and for that matter animals) from harm is more important than punishment.
.
You mention punishment 5 times. I’m not concerned with punishment, but the suffering of the innocent. Putting someone to death or torturing them doesn’t make things any better for those who have suffered.
.
Unless a punishment can be shown to have a deterrent effect on would-be criminals, or is an unavoidable side-effect of putting them out of harm’s way. I don’t see any need for people to suffer. No, not even people who’ve caused harm to others.
.
I’d like to stop the suffering, not get revenge for it. Sorry, I probably should’ve made this clearer before.
.
Cheers,
- Eshu

Biblical support for God not being omnipotent:

Judges 1:19: And the LORD was with Judah, and he took possession of the hill country, but He could not drive out the inhabitants of the plain because they had chariots of iron.

If God can’t defeat armies with chariots of iron, he certainly can’t be omnipotent.

Hmm. Some translations put “they” instead of “he”, and the “he” ones I found all use lower case. Also, many of them also put a semicolon after Judah, and one commentator mentions that “And the LORD was with Judah” should be on the tail end of verse 18, not the start of 19.

Just some things I noticed when looking it up in e-Sword.