Fallen and Flawed

I think you are probably right, at least now you are right. Osteen has perfected his homely image over the years and has repeatedly used his lack of theological education as a way to connect to “average” people. I think he probably took over his fathers church and made some theologically erroneous claims and discovered that was what people wanted to hear. Nathan Hatch partially explores the problem of uneducated pastors and their effect on American Christianity during the second great awakening in a book “The Democratization of American Christianity.” Not every pastor has to have an MDiv or PhD but they should at the minimum have a fundamental understanding of the gospel.

Great points, Zach. You know Richard Hofstadder makes similar points as Hatch in a book called Anti-Intellectualism in America. Devotes a third of the book to exploring our evangelical, uneducated roots. Good stuff. Thanks for the tip.

I don’t listen to Osteen much (if ever come to think of it) so I can’t really comment on his teachings.

However, while you’re right that God does not promise us a life of ease, he DOES promise us the blessings of Abraham.

It seems to me like many Christians tend to gravitate towards one extreme or the other. Either life on earth is horrible and they’re trying to “hold the fort til Jesus comes” or they’re along the lines of how you describe Osteen and think that God promises a life of puppy dogs, bunny rabbits and rainbows.

Neither extreme is accurate, there will always be struggles as long as the devil is contending against Christ’s work here on earth. But, as Christians we’re on the stronger side and are promised blessings and favor.

I’m impressed by how consistently thought provoking your posts are and how much dialogue you create. When your readers can’t help but to comment on your posts, you know you’re doing something right as a blogger. Cheers!

Ben: Your new name is Contrarian. Just kidding. Trust me…I appreciate your thought-provoking comments. Levels the inbalance. I can see how this post alone is heavy handed on the ugly side of Christianity…Need to get working on those post about the bunny rabbits and rainbows. [But you know, Ben, bunny rabbit posts will generate zero buzz. Correct me if I'm wrong. ]

Great thoughts, as always, Demian
Just two things I was thinking while reading,

1. It’s true that being a Christian comes at a cost and I know you would agree that the end goal is to glorify God. But, what about the Christians out there who emphasize the suffering to the extent that they feel if they are not offending at least someone (Christian or not) that they are being ineffective? I won’t point to any examples but I think there needs to be a thin line between making a stand and standing on love, lest the message get lost somewhere in the middle.

2. Didn’t Peter deny Jesus, not at the cost of a bullet but for mere association? Obviously that wasn’t true all of his life but I think it’s worth mentioning

Haha I’m sure you’ll figure out a way to generate buzz with bunny rabbits.

Great stuff!

One of my friends recently said to me “Whilst I’m convinced that God does predestine us and we aren’t evolved, when it comes up with non-Christians I am just desperate to believe those ideas. It would just make evangelism so easier”.

I found that a very insightful comment. How often do I deny my beliefs for the sake of “converts”? It’s all due to my fear of unbelievers and thinking that I am responsible for conversion, when it is God alone.

I don’t know if fear is the reason for Osteen’s heresy, but I know it’s the reason for a lot of mine and probably a lot of everyone else’s. Let’s use the example of men like Osteen who have gone so off the mark as a warning to us. Let’s pray we don’t end up like him!

P.S. I want to echo Ben that your site is bring out consistently good quality posts. It’s really challenging! Look forward to hearing more.

Tim: Thanks for the support and kind words. I appreciate your contribution. Let’s keep each other accountable on being biblical and Gospel oriented. Take care.

I have to agree with Horton here. A few years ago, I was given a writing assignment from the fundraising communications agency that was working for Mr. Osteen. I had only seen him on TV once or twice prior. But because I had to write a letter from him in his voice, I began to read much of what he wrote. As I did so, I had this funny feeling; couldn’t quite put my finger on what was bothering me. It was like I had sat down to eat a meal… I could see the food and it looked good, it smelled good, and all the silverware seemed to be where it was supposed to be… but after lots of eating, I was still hungry. My experiences in walking with Christ for thirty-some years were not matching up quite right with what Mr. Osteen was saying. If everything was supposed to work out great just by believing, then what was I doing wrong? After some reflection, I realized that I wasn’t the one who was wrong, it was Joel. My experience has been that there really is NO growth in Christ without pain. I’ve never grown when things were all rosey. Only when it all hit the fan and I came through to the other side did I realize some time later that my faith had grown, my walk deepened, and my ability to empathize and help someone in else in pain had become easier.
After all was said and done, I did write the letter for Joel. I used some of his language but I also spoke the truth as I saw it in Scripture. I later heard he changed everything I wrote. No surprise. But I’m also not really worried about Joel. I take the long view. So does God.

@Archie:
1. I share the same fear. And I don’t like people who relish the fact that they can drive people up the wall. You nailed it when you said the balance between making a stand and walking in love. When loves the motivation to share the Gospel, you then do it out of a heart of respect and compassion. More than anything, just wanted to point out that persecution should be expected. And a part of a confessing Christian’s life.
2. Great example: Peter was a pillar but he bowed to man a lot. He did this in Acts when he agreed with the Judiazers that Christians should be circumcised. Paul took him to the carpet. We, too, will fail. Repeatedly. That’s why we need Christ.
So appreciate the dialog. A ton. Thank you.

@Richard: Good for you for sticking to your guns. And I love your picture of eating and never getting full. In fact, Horton’s argument in his book that what actually Osteen and others is preaching is works righteousness–try a little harder and success will come. Eye opening. Thanks for your thoughts.

Demian

“Tim: Thanks for the support and kind words. I appreciate your contribution. Let’s keep each other accountable on being biblical and Gospel oriented. Take care.”

I’d appreciate that a lot! Look forward to reading more of your writing and keeping the accountability going.

First—-I’m sorry to say that you are RIGHT about the tv sermons. However Mr Osteen’s church is one of the best examples I’ve ever seen of actually putting Christianity into action–I have never ever seen a church that has done so much for so many. If you live in Houston you will know what I mean.

He’s got it 100% right as far as basic doctrine (when you attend a service in person you’ll see this)—and he tells those viewing to seek a good Bible believing Church. Do I agree with everything he says? No way. But I also don’t agree with eveything my own pastor says.

There’s two things that I get sick of–fighting over doctrine–and those claiming Christ as their savior–and not acting very “Christ Like”… I’m also tired of hearing the fire and brimstone–yes I know I’m a sinner whose worth nothing– … but many churches do not talk of God’s goodness — his desire to know us.

I agree with Joel on one thing. I do NOT believe God put us here to be worshipping robots with nothing to live for but him 24/7. He put us here to get something out of this life too. Yes we will become a new creature in him–but he has given us each unique talents-gifts-dreams. Some will be called to Ministry–others will be called to glorify him with their talents used elsewhere. Encouraging humanbeings to be all then can be thru Christ is a message that’s time has come.

Take a looksee at his website–visit a service for yourself. But don’t base it all on his 20 minute sermon. Discernment is good. But he has a calling — and that calling is to provide HOPE. Hope seem to have vanished nowadays. Hope thru Christ YES–and hope on how to live in the here and now before standing in his presence later. I believe that God is a GOOD God. A GOD who wants us to have a abundant life–I don’t mean-cash-power-and material things—–but a fulfilled life–finding one’s destiny and calling and with God’s help and grace, entering into it. Joel encourages the body of Christ to reach their potential — and begin a relationship with Christ.

You don’t like him–stop watching him. I do—millions do. And don’t dare tell me that I’m not a true Christian. I appreciate Joel for what he is– one who provides HOPE. A pastor with a unique calling. And again it’s unfair to criticize if you haven’t seen the entire sermon–YOU ARE GETTING 25% of what takes place at Lakewood.

Benji, thanks for posting…I’m curious…do you believe that Osteen is a minister of God’s Word? An ambassador of Christ?

If so, do you think that the Bible teaches that ministers can pick and choose out of the Bible what they want to preach on? That they can be selective?

And do you think that God’s goodness makes sense in the absence of his God’s wrath, justice and holiness?

By the way, when you say God’s “goodness,” what do you mean?

And what is this “Christianity put into action” that you see Lakewood doing so well? Does this have anything to do about the doctrine you’re tired of fighting over?

Furthermore, since when did the endorsement or support of millions of people establish truth? And since when did the message of the gospel–God redeeming a rebellious people through the blood of Christ–stop being about hope?

That statement alone is shocking, friend. So, I have to ask, Benji, what is this hope Osteen preaches? Who or what is it rooted in? And what is its focus–God or man?

Finally, why is it unfair to criticize Osteen’s TV sermons? Or his books? He doesn’t seem to have a problem airing them or publishing them? What’s public is fair game, friend.

And are you telling me that behind the scenes Osteen does press hard to make sure people are talking about these six things?

I love you to death, brother [and I mean that sincerely], but you’ve got a little explaining to do.

Thanks and look forward to your thoughts.

“We measure our spiritual maturity by how much of the Sermon on the Mount we walk out in daily life. We measure our ministry impact by the extent to which people live out these values, not by the number of people who receive our ministry.” Nice quote from Mike Bickle.

In hindsight how did you like Christless Christianity? Do you recommend it?

Excellent book. In fact, best book I read in 2009.

You seem to me to be more filled with hate than the Love of Christ. You and people who subscribe to this legalistic dark side obviously want to place yourself above all other people and perceive yourself to be so Christ-Like that perhaps you think you are the second coming of Christ yourself? I think you have lost sight of everything in your own extremely judgmental self-righteousness. Your pride overflows and blinds you completely. That much is very, very clear.
Contemplate your Pride brother. Kick it down a few notches. God Bless you.

Keep on telling it like it is via the Bible, and remember what happened to Christ when He told the truth. You were not ’slamming’ Osteen but sadly it seems too many would prefer a horrendous lie over the ‘truth’ any day. My heart goes out to those in that building, as what good does it do for them to “hold up those Bibles” if they don’t know what it actually says, enough to ‘challenge’ Joel on what he says?
It seems the ‘itching ears’ have truly begun in earnest, and I pray to God they (and Joel) wake up before it’s too late.
The LORD ‘NEVER’ promised us that we’d ever “live our best life” while here on “this earth”, but it seems too many would rather believe God than man. Truly sad indeed.
For: Todd Mitchell, Benji-Greg (It’s about providing more than hope), and others who ’side with Joel’. What will ‘you’ do when you stand before our Holy, Righteous, and ‘Just’ LORD and He says to you, “but whose report did you believe”, and you see that ‘you’ believed Joel rather than God?
Thank you also Demian Farnworth,for you were ’spot on’ with your response to Benji. God help and have mercy on us who should really know better via the Word.

Sorry, I meant to say too many would prefer to believe “man” over God.