Fallen and Flawed

Demian,

I will keep this post on hand for the next time some theist says that I “just hate God”. As you said, atheists don’t believe in any gods; so to be fair, let’s have everyone acknowledge that.

Theists — please don’t tell me that I don’t believe in a god because “I am rebelling” and “I hate God”. Remember, I and most others who are atheist do not believe that there is enough evidence to indicate the existence of a god.

If atheists should not be able to criticize a Christian god they don’t believe in, theists should not be able to criticize atheists using the criteria of a god they don’t believe in. If this is too difficult, then all criticism should be accepted.

Why was Paul determined to preach only Christ crucified? Because only that presuppositional foundation is sufficient, upon which to argue “good news” to lost sinners. On Mars Hill he did not seek to “cut the legs out from under” the scoffers’ proferred objections, but rather to show them the Rock upon which he stood and that their own footing was on shifting sands.
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No, the nonbeliever does not have the right to create false dilemmas for us, but let them try. Ours is not to defend ourselves against their attack, but to give an account for the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. What is at issue is not that those who deny God believe in some concept of evil, but that they don’t take evil seriously enough! Why are they concerned over a tsunami or an earthquake, but not over abortion which kills millions or sexual immorality which wrecks millions of lives? They selectively ignore great evils over which they might actually bear some influence in their self-serving quest to pretend that they might evade the judgment of God who made them for Himself.
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Better, I think, to identify to them what horror evil truly is, then go on to explain why God allows it to exist. After all, they are not seeking knowledge in challenging our beliefs, but are attempting to disguise their rebellion against God as being merely itellectual objection.
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Never forget that it is the Gospel of Christ which is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, and that ungodly men, bearing God’s wrath, supress His given truth by their unrighteousness (read Rom.1). Our struggle is not against flesh-and-blood atheists or skeptics, but against their hell-inspired delusions by which they deny the truth of which they are aware and deceive themselves into believing that they are truthful in so doing. You can’t argue with that– only the Word of God wielded by the Holy Spirit can penetrate such a fog and blizzard of deceit. I offer Teleprompter’s comment, above, in evidence. [Nothing personal, Tele-- it's all in The Book.]

For the record, I think Demian is not saying that he believes atheists don’t believe in God, but that they claim to not believe in God. That is what I wrote of, above, in saying that they suppress what they know to be true by their unrighteous denial of its truth and convince themselves that their efforts are honest. Atheists lie to us about what they really believe because they have persuaded themselves that their lies are truth…

Telepromter: you beat me to pretty much what I was going to say!
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al: your last comment about atheists suppressing what they know to be true is a massive call to make, although I understand it comes from reading Romans. It’s a bit hard to argue properly against such an unfounded blanket assertion, all I can do is testify that in my case, nothing could be further from the truth. Despite my childhood indoctrination I came to a gradual disbelief in God that I resisted every way I could, due to the way the religion trains your brain to deal with evil doubts. At the time I stood to lose everything and gain nothing, but still it happened. Thankfully for me life is better than ever now (not because I feel free to sin, before you ask. my behaviour remains the same!) but I had no idea of that back then.
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Demian: Do you really think that God is neccessary to have a sense of injustice? Doesn’t such a sense simply come from sympathy for others or ourselves, which comes from the combination of knowing pain by our own experience and being able to observe others who appear to experience the same?

Al: you wrote that “Atheists lie to us about what they really believe because they have persuaded themselves that their lies are truth…”.
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What is truth, Al? I am sincerely as interested in this as you are, or as any of you are. I am not a liar. Maybe I believe a lie, maybe I don’t — but I am sincere in my questioning. My deconversion was entirely on philosophical grounds.
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I live in a world where people all around the world call upon different types of gods every day. Even many of the non-religious experience a transcendental urge, a more “spiritual” awareness of being. I posit that this is a fundamentally human experience. Is there a divine source for this? I don’t know. I believe that most religions are human constructs.
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Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam — every major religion has arisen in its own unique cultural context. If religion is a human construct, would we not expect all of these belief systems to arise from the ground up?
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I believe in religion. How could I not? Religion surrounds us. I don’t believe in the divine. Why should I? Every human civilization has developed a notion of a divine presence or presences. Could there be any underlying explanation for all of these occurrences? This is the question that is most revealing and powerful for me.
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If Christianity is true, what is the underlying explanation for all of this religious diversity? I try to be honest with myself – I cannot honestly believe that Christianity is true at this point in my life. I cannot accept its claims, based on the evidence I have.
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Could I be wrong? Of course. I accept that. May I change my mind someday? Of course. I never expected to be anything but a Christian. I have learned not to try and predict my life ahead of time.
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I really appreciate the space that Demian has provided in this blog, and I will try to be as honest and courteous as I possibly can. I realize that this is a difficult and contentious subject for all of us. Please bear with me, and I will bear with you.

Teleprompter, I apologize, but I’m not following your last statement. The spirit of the post was simply this: You don’t believe in God, but yet you blame him for pain and suffering [understand, "you" is universal. I'm in know way singling you out.] Truly, what I encourage is a deeper understanding of where people think evil and suffering come from. POE, in my mind, is a cop out. And for a Christian to simply take the bait is unproductive. Your honesty and openness impresses me and I have no problem talking about this. And I don’t feel it’s contentious. If I struck a chord, it wasn’t intentional. As always, I’m looking for deeper discussion. Thank you Teleprompter.
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James: No, I don’t think God is necessary for a sense of justice. I tried to be as careful as I could under 500 words :p to point out that’s not what I’m suggesting. I thought the penultimate line covered that, because really all POE does is suggest an objective sense of justice…a moral standard that we MIGHT be able to tie back to God. Naturally this is the realm of Aneslm, Lewis and classic apologetics. One philosophical brick in the building, so to speak. Thanks for your thoughts.

James, the claim I stated is indeed massive, but it is NOT unfounded, being based, as you have acknowledged, upon the words of the Bible, Romans being but one example.
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Tele, Jesus said, “I AM… the truth… no one can come to the Father except through me.”
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Demian sets the stage here for the open exchange of ideas, viewpoints, perspectives, whatever you want to call them. It is a good forum, and I wish to insult no one in my statements. I can promise you that I am as honest with you as I am with myself. But having pledged that, what good is my word to you if even I can’t trust it? I have often discovered by God’s grace that I have been self deceived, and have had to repent of my dishonesty and align myself with His Word.
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Mine may sound like a you-vs-me argument, but the fact is that it is all of us vs God. We are born in inherent sinfulness, natural enemies of, and rebels against God. It is only by His mercy, love and kindness that we ever discover that we are ungodly [spiritual, yes; godly, no] liars and evildoers, and that God has provided forgiveness, cleansing and restoration to Himself for those who will receive it.
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The knowledge of all these things comes only via the words of holy Scripture, which minister life to its hearers but is foolishness to those who refuse them. All of God’s “exceedingly great and precious promises” have been committed to us in writing. Now, I’ll be the first to admit that the proliferation of Bible versions can be confusing, and that many of them are not translations but paraphrases, but the problem of trusting God’s Word is not of the intellect, but of the attitude. The point is that God has spoken and left us a clear record of what He said, because He lives and His living Holy Spirit will assure that His words survive every attempt people make to distort them, for the sake of those who hunger to know Him. If we seek with all our heart and mind to know the truth, regardless of its consequence to us, we will know the truth. Regardless of personal consequence means apart from all our demands and qualifiers, such as timing and other limitations. It requires one to gamble one’s life and entire future.
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Why should one risk so much? Because the alternative of knowing the truth is living a lie. We are born liars and self-deceivers, inclined by nature to evade the truth of God. But God will give a new nature to those willing to receive it.
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I do not post here to tell nonbelievers they are wrong, but to tell believers and nonbelievers alike that God is right, holy, just and true. He is to be believed and trusted. If I were able, I would convince you. But I am not able to convince even myself, for although I have a new nature in Christ, my old nature wrestles against it for dominance. I am not able to cling to the truth, but it is God clinging to me that keeps me from drifting back into my former ways. So I tell you what I have learned and I pray that you will receive some benefit from it.
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I thank God for the privilege of encountering each of you.

Demian: My last post was meant as a reply to Al’s comments; it was not intended to be a response to your post, but merely a response to Al’s thoughts which I identified at the beginning of my comment. I apologize for the confusion which may have resulted.
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I respect you, and I respect your decisions, but that is not enough for me. I want to emphasize that I do not believe that my current position is necessarily fully correct, but I do believe that it is the most tenable position for me personally at this time. I wish all of you the best.

Al,

Thanks for your thoughtful response. Don’t get me wrong – I am not foolish enough to think that I have an untainted, unbiased view of anything, for that would be impossible – you can’t escape your emotional makeup completely.
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However, imagine if I belonged to another religion that taught that our deity reveals the truth at it’s discretion to otherwise self-blinded people. And you of course, are one of those self-blinded people. In fact, you believing in Christianity is just another way you blind yourself to the real truth, which I pray my god will reveal to you.
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How would you respond to that?
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Disclaimer: this is not actually the case, it’s just for the sake of argument!

Indeed, it’s a thorny issue. But supported by sound biblical answers…yet, you don’t have to go there.

Why? An atheist has no business asking that question.

Demian, when I bring up the problem of evil, it is usually because a theist is telling me how good, loyal and wonderful God is. I can phrase the question hypothetically for you, “If God is real and he is so good, why is there evil in the world?” See, I am willing to assume for argument that God exists. I do this often. Especially, if I’m trying to make a point about the conflicting claims made about a certain god.

What you’re doing is leading them to see that perhaps evil presupposes a morally perfect standard.

I don’t think there is such a thing as a morally perfect standard. There always those who are harmed by the most well-intentioned law. However, I do agree that you should agree on a definition of evil first. Depending on that definition, it may or may not imply a perfect moral standard.

I am still reading your every post, though my transition from the spring semester to the summer has left me short on time. I’ll be back shortly.

James, I try earnestly to not entertain presumptions about you personally or to take for granted anything you say, and appreciate your questions.
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imagine if I belonged to another religion that taught that our deity reveals the truth at it’s discretion to otherwise self-blinded people. And you of course, are one of those self-blinded people. In fact, you believing in Christianity is just another way you blind yourself to the real truth, which I pray my god will reveal to you…How would you respond to that?

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Our society has devolved into a state of tolerant permissiveness that entertains such scenarios as you suggest as being legitimate considerations. Does not one person have as much right to choose a religion as another? Cannot one god be as valid as the next? The question has become not only one of “can?” but of “shouldn’t?” But when the God is exclusive of all others, the bank upon which tolerance is drawn shuts down. Why is that?
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Consider: The biblical God [1]created all that exists, [2]sustains all that is, [3]is sovereign over all things in heaven and earth, and [4]commands those who believe in Him to recognize no other gods. In other words, God is in His essence absolute and demanding of absolutes. Two or more dieties making the above claims would constitute a contradiction. Two creators of all? Two sovereigns over everything? Impossible, and ridiculous.
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So, to answer your excellent question, should I encounter such a person as you depict I must presume their faith to be misplaced and in error. Why their and not mine? Because the fundamental presupposition of my faith is that my God is exactly as self-described in the Bible which is his infallible and unchangeable Word. How do I know that? Because He has said so and He cannot lie. Yes, my reasoning is circular, always returning to the self-validating Holy Scriptures. This is a thing one can only believe as a recipient of God’s mercy through Christ, and a thing that, once believed cannot be denied.
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Let me be clear: I do believe that all paths lead to the same God, be they ways of religion, philosophy, mysticism, logic, whatever. That is because, as the Bible teaches, everyone is appointed to die and afterward be judged. That judgment will be performed by God in the Person of Jesus Christ. No matter what you have believed, disbelieved, practiced or ignored, you will die, and you will appear before God to be judged. Those who have received the gift of eternal life through God-given faith in Christ Jesus will be judged as having been forgiven all offenses toward God when Jesus died on their behalf, bearing the punishment for their sins. The rest will have to bear the consequences of their chosen lifestyles, according to God’s standard, not their own. There will be a sentence upon every transgression of His will. The Bible calls this “the second death,” which is eternal, even as is the unearned reward of those who God has saved.
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The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

al,

James, I try earnestly to not entertain presumptions about you personally or to take for granted anything you say, and appreciate your questions.

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Thankyou, I endeavour to do the same.
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Yes, my reasoning is circular, always returning to the self-validating Holy Scriptures.

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There lies our principal difference. While ever I believe the Christian scriptures are wholly man-made, Christianity will always be just another religion.
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Thanks as always, al, for your thoughtful and comprehensive reply.

“Remember: an atheist doesn’t believe in God. So they can’t use a component they don’t believe in to build a dilemma for you.”

That’s like saying that because I’m not a Communist, I can’t take issue with Marx’s dialectic. The ability to use another person’s point of view and their own axioms as grounding points for argument against their conclusions is one of the finest examples of an open, working mind.

Though I don’t really find the Problem of Evil to be a good argument against the existence of some sort of god, merely against one that is both omnipotent and omnibenevolent.

James Elliot [sorry, got to make the distinction cause there's two James]: You’re right, that’s not fair to close off that POV…like you said, it’s in fact like saying, “Let’s pretend there is a God…” so I see what you mean.
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POE IS ruthless against omni-potent and -benevolent. That’s why we see some pastors embracing open theism…and bucking classical attributes like immutability and all the omnis.

As an atheist, I never realised why evil bothered me.

That question really shook me to the foundations.

Now I know why I don’t like toothache.

Because there is a God.

Steven, are you a theist or Christian now?

Yeah, not sure where you’re going with that comment, Steven. Are you saying God causes toothaches?

I was simply pointing out, in a rather British sarcastic manner, that one hardly needs to believe in a god to be justified in saying that
toothache causes objectively real suffering.

Are you equating suffering with evil? If so, on what grounds? I admit suffering is painful. I would wonder, though, how you attach moral significance to suffering.

Steven: Sorry, missed the humor.

Are you claiming that suffering is not a bad thing, and an omnibenevolent god would not be benevolent and help suffering people?

Are you claiming that there is no moral signifiance to suffering, and so I can act like your alleged god and pass by on the other side when people suffer?

I claimed nothing, I only asked you on what grounds you are attaching moral significance to suffering.