Fallen and Flawed

I figured pastors will be capitalizing on that murder all over the world to teach their flocks about why God really was there when it didn’t seem like it, how to deal with suffering, and why they need to have escape plans (like I saw Driscoll did). So why not do the same thing, but from a different angle?

Also, I don’t think the Christianity circus acts are “normative” — did I say that somewhere? It’s just entertaining blog fodder. Everyone likes to laugh. I’d be laughing at most of that stuff even as a Christian. Those stupid videos are not a case against Christianity. They are just examples of what fools we can all be.

BTW, you are right reformed bloggers like to talk to one another. They are very insulted — but it’s their nature. Their theology tends to be elitist, and they look down on others who don’t follow their precious TULIP. So they spend most of their time talking to one another.

But most groups can be like that to some extent. I’m sure atheist blogs do it too. Hopefully UF is a little more divers — there are certainly a diverse amount of commenters.

But then again, what did you expect from a tacky individualist relativist?

I only skimmed this article briefly but I would have to agree with Tim Keller on pastors spending time with both Christians & non-christians. But this applies not just to pastors, but to everyday Christians as well.

We isolate ourselves so much in our “perfect” Christian worlds and lose touch with all reality. How then can you possibly engage or have common ground with say, an atheist when you only listen to Jesus-is-my-boyfriend music? There’s just no common ground. But I think this applies to more than just blogging, it’s directly related to life itself and building real relationships (that’s where the maturity comes in with knowing when in your relationship to bring up Christianity).

Just some thoughts…

great thoughts as always. i have to admit that this is something i appreciate and respect about your blog… that you are not afraid to engage in the “step on your toes” type of discussions. on many occasions it has challenged me to think through more clearly what I post, why, and ultimately to remember the hope that i have in Christ. it has also challenged me to do the same, to engage in discussion with others who do not believe the same as I do. i have to admit, on one regard, this frightens me. i fear coming across as one of those “arrogant know it alls that can’t defend what they believe.” having only been a believer in Christ for the past 3 years, I am very aware there is much i do not know of the Bible and that there are many great debaters out there that could run circles around my little mind. but like Paul, my resolve is to know Christ and to understand and share the truth of the cross… realizing that the power behind my words is not my own great insight or intellect, but rather the Holy Spirit who empowers me. that’s humbling. yet also quite liberating.

Oops: By “[Reformed bloggers are] insulted” I meant “insulated” — a bit of a difference!

By cocktail party I assume you meant “Non-alcoholic cocktail party,” wouldn’t want anyone stumbling on hypothetical arguments…

I think it comes down to understanding and being honest with what you do and don’t know. Accepting room for the fact God is not entirely knowable and there’s a point that accumulating ammunition for internet arguments becomes a golden calf. I daresay Moses didn’t ask to see ecumenical methodology on burning bushes.

Then take chances, trust God is still God whether you have the “right” answers or not and share your life with others, people who may not have similar thoughts on Transubstantiation.
Do that and I think you’ll be eternally busy… literally.

Once again I fully agree that we as Christians need to step out of our preverbal box and reach out to non-believers. However, to go toe-to-toe with a TRUE atheist takes someone special, someone that has been rightly called by God to do so. I have been thrust into several of these situations in my lifetime, from friends to a family member who is a self-proclaimed atheist.
I am by no means a theologian but I consider myself to be very concrete in my faith in Christ, and let me just say being confronted by an atheist or an agnostic can raise questions in the most faithful believer. I am all for reaching out, evangelizing, sharing our testimonies; but please tread lightly when challenging these types of extremists, especially for those “green” in their faith.

@MJ: Er, atheists are extremists? I didn’t realize simply saying there is no evidence for God is such an extreme position.

Oh Demian stop being so insightful…!

I need time to think over what you’re saying and see if I made the right decision. Ah!!

(Note: tone of the above comment, sarcastic and with a smile on my face, if that wasn’t obvious)

@Emily: Your resolve will pay off. And thank you deeply for the kind words. To be able to encourage you means the world to me. I’m praying for you.

@Daniel: I don’t know…I’m going to have to call you on your gesture of not thinking them normative. The father stabs son for wearing hat post, for example. You end with, “And Christians are afraid of atheists?” Then there’s your commenters. You’re not going to say they think differently, are you? Not all of them, of course, but the hard core ones for sure think so. At least say as much.
.
By the way: You know I can get away with calling you tacky only because I’m tacky, right? I’m the pot calling the kettle black.

I have struggled with what exactly to do with my blog. Right now it gets once-a-month updates (if that) and they’re kind of just bleh. I had gotten into the reformed blogging circle for a while, but realized how self-absorbed I was. I just wanted to sound insightful. Now I’m a seldom-blogger/blog stalker.
I’d like to say that your post will inspire me to start blogging more regularly, however the fact that I’m lazy and a realist prevents me. You never know, though.

@Andrew: At least your honest.

I feel sorry for those of you who don’t work in a environment that battles against your faith in Jesus Christ. So whats the point, are we to save a blog that should have closed shop long ago? Should we build a relationship with people we’ll never meet? Should we help someone who is willing to give up on blog that may impact others for Christ? Finally do waste time trying to convince someone who has heard the truth (studied it) and has embarrassed Satan.

thanks for your encouragement.

Grub: Thought-provoking questions. I wonder: why do you feel sorry for people who don’t work in an environment that battles against your faith in Jesus? Seems like life would be easier if you didn’t have to deal with extremists like atheists. [That was for you, Daniel...;-)]

Damn those extremists who make you think!

@Daniel: Who are you making think? You must feel like you’re Morpheus freeing us from the Matrix. Hey everyone, sounds like a God complex to me. But that’s what happens when you allow Satan talk you into eating of the fruit. All Daniel did was take a little taste, he claims with an open mind, and Satan blow his brains out. Daniel, you claim to be extreme but in what?

@Demian: What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. No pain, no gain.

I guess you didn’t get my sarcasm, my little grub. My point was that I’m not an extremist.

I like your cute allusion to Heb 6, though I admit I found the “Satan blew my brains out” part more amusing than instructive. I might have had a “little taste” — but my little taste has lasted longer and gone deeper than many Christians I know. But I realize you must believe that, for the Bible tells you so (that is, your interpretation — I also have people email me telling me they’ll see me in heaven because I once accepted Jesus as my person savior).

I’m not claiming to be God, grub. That’s ridiculous. I wonder if you can really think that about people. Perhaps you can.

I don’t believe in a god, and I’m not one any more than you are. However, I do regularly get emails thanking me for challenging people’s ideas. To me that means I’m helping people think through their beliefs (and they don’t always end up agreeing with me, and I’m fine with that).

I think that’s most bloggers desire — to influence and challenge people.

Daniel: You must not be following me. As in the fall of man, you picked up the fruit of this world (tasted) and turned your back on God. I’ll say this, you probably had a deep love for Jesus but you found that your new love (the world) let you do what ever you wanted. Jesus will not be your whore. The only thing you challenge me to do is make you admit that you have set yourself up as equal with God. “They have (in your case had) a form of godliness but they deny the power thereof” (II Tim 3:5)

Yes, I can see how you would think it so. You are taught that people turn away from their faith because they want freedom to sin, instead of because they have intellectual problems with the claims of Christianity.

But I assure you I turned away from God because I see no evidence for his existence. Before that, I turned away from Christianity because I saw the bible was not reliable evidence for its own claims.

My morality has remained unchanged. If anything, I think I’ve become a better person without my constant focus on spiritual things.

But if you think I left because of sin or whatever, there is nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. That’s how you see the world, and that is how you will interpret my experience.

Being willing to engage with non-Christians is one thing, but to get into an endless circle of nonsensical discussion with someone who thrives on being just this side of antagonistic simply for the sake of being that way is useless, futile and a waste of time. I believe what I believe, and others have made up their minds, too. I’m willing to talk to them, but they have to be willing to truly listen, hear the Word, and allow the Spirit of the Lord to change them. Those who merely rely on proof of existence will not hear and not because they can’t, but because they don’t want to. They have the answer and nothing and no one is going to change their minds. They can rationalize their reasons for turning away from God and Christianity but the fact remains – they made a conscious decision to leave.

1 John 1:8 – If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

I’m a better person since I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, but I’m still a sinner. Being a better person doesn’t mean you’re not a sinner, and being a sinner means the hottest day you experienced here on Earth will be nothing compared to what’s waiting for you when you die.

Much like Daniel not being able to convince anyone of the soundness of his reasons for turning away, we’re not going to convince him to see the light. Again, this is useless.

Blog on a website where you can lift up others, challenge others to a higher, loftier understanding, and be there to help people like Dan when they’re truly willing to open their hearts to God.

My opinion, and it’s worth what you paid for it.

Daniel: Thank you.

Good stuff here, Demian. As Christians we are called to always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks us to give the reason for the hope that we have but to do so with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15) Now some might say they aren’t asking for a reason at all, and they would appreciate it if we would keep our reasons to ourselves, thank you very much. However, after briefly perusing some of the material and commentary on Daniel Florien’s blog a logical question one might have is, “How can anyone actually believe in the God of Christianity?” I’m not naive enough to think that an intelligent, thought provoking, and well reasoned arguement in favor of faith in the God of the Bible is going to motivate Daniel Florien to reconsider his position. However, for those who are reading his blog and perhaps genuinely seeking truth, comments from serious Christian theologians who are able to intelligently enter the worldview of atheists and/or agnostics, demonstrate understanding of that worldview, and then gently and respectfully point out some of the inconsistencies of that worldview would serve an important purpose.

Grub Bud: Nice nuance. I’m always reluctant to engage people who are belligerent, but give me someone who gives me space, I’d be happy to give them space, too. That’s the healthy engagement I’m looking for.

Jon Clark: Sound argument. I agree with you because there aren’t a lot of thoughtful Christians talking to Daniel. Just the opposite. Which simply reinforces a poor, uneducated view of Christians. Thank you for the leveled response.

@Daniel: what intellectual claims do you have against Christianity? Just curious, also if there is no evidence for God then why do children believe without question? It seems to me that there is this “super-cynical, always doubting, skeptic at heart, faith doubting, gospel-type message” preached or imposed on the vulnerable crowd of nominal, alleged believers coming from those who, usually, not always argue because at the root had a bad taste in their mouth from ‘the Church’ or have their own emotional wrestling matches with God or moral questions or trying to escape some kind of impending doom or get out from under the weight of guilt. Does that make any sense?

Bryan: If there is no evidence for Santa Claus why to children believe in him? I hope you see what a terrible argument that is. Kids believe anything you tell them.

If you don’t know what my intellectual claims might be against Christianity, come to my site and take a look at some of my articles. Sounds like you need to do some research on your religion if you don’t know the thousands of intellectual claims against your religion.

Dan: So, your children believe everything you tell them…? What if you’re wrong about God not being real? And what happens when, for whatever reason, they see the light and no longer believe what you tell them and become Christians? Just because you make an “intellectual” claim against Christianity doesn’t make it “truth”. Your claims are your opinions, nothing more. You likely engage in chats like this, not so much to convince others to see your points of view, but to continually work on keeping yourself convinced in the face of overwhelming certainty that God does exist. Your intellectualism cannot produce the water or air or food you need to survive, but God provides these things for you in abundance. And before you offer up that you can make these things, remember this – the essential building blocks were also given to you. When you can create your own molecules of hydrogen and oxygen to make water, come back and disprove the existence of a loving, merciful and all powerful God. When you can create your own food from nothing at all, come back and disprove the existence of a benevolant and omnipotent God. When you can create your own photons of light to nourish plants so they’ll grow and be eaten by animals that end up as a meal in your stomach, then you can come back and tell us all how wrong we were. Until then, take your intellectual claims and consider the fact that they’re just your opinions. We’re not children and we don’t have to believe just because you said so. We believe because God has done a work in our hearts, like the opening of a flower after a gentle spring rain. Until you can create a flower from nothing at all, your intellectual claims don’t hold water, they don’t appear to be intellectual at all, and they are completely UN-believable. God made the heavens and the earth – when you or any other man can do that, come back and make that intellectual claim stick.

@Demian: I wanted to say that I appreciate your blurg on engaging agnostic and atheistic bloggers. This semester one of my professors at Gordon Conwell is working with me on cultural apologetics and my main project during our time together is to leverage my existing blog as more of an evangelistic/apologetic resource. I’ll take what you’ve shared and see what I can make of it! Thanks

Good to hear, Jesse. I’m glad you find it helpful. Let me know if I can do anything for you.

Thanks for the encouragement in this post.

I’ve been to Unreasonable Faith many times. I’ve even left some comments. But I often question the reasoning behind doing so.

I am a layman with a layman’s understanding, so I’m sure I’ve made many mistakes. But I have learned much from the journey.

I’m a laymen, too. I’ve learned a lot from the journey also. May we grow in Christ, sir.