Fallen and Flawed

D, your closing question requires discussion:

So, how do you decide whether a religion is compatible with Christianity? Whether it’s a cult, sect or denomination?

Your own answer implies a twofold answer in which both parts are of equal weight:

Simple: It needs to pass two tests–doctrinal and experiential.

Doctrinal: Is it orthodox on the key issues? Experiential: Does it see a faith encounter with Christ alone as the pathway to being right with God?

Not quite so simple: The “experiential” must be defined by the doctrinal; otherwise the door is open for a free-for-all. “A faith encounter with Christ” has been defined in great detail in Holy Scripture, so as to preclude any ad lib personal epiphanies which are self- or ortherwise-inspired. In fact, one might have the very emphatic sense of a personal encounter with Christ which is, in reality, pure delusion. OR, just as likely, one may encounter Christ by faith in God’s Word, experiencing no conscious “experience” of the encounter at all.

The latter case in no way negates the reality and certainty of the encounter, but necessitates that the proof of the new birth from above, repentance, and saving faith is in the words that God has said, and in no way dependent upon subjective feelings (which may or may not accompany the reality).

This explanation is not to be taken as a refutation, but rather an explanation of your post above.

There are too many cults that are claiming a Christian identity. Just several years ago you would not have heard a Jehovah’s Witness call themselves Christian. Actually, they taught that the Christians were going to Hell. Now, however, the JW’s readily take up the title “Christian.”

Mormons have done the same. I am really baffled that one would call one’s self “Christian” when the doctrines are dramatically different—yes, even opposing each other. There is no way I would call myself a Morman for the sake of being more socially acceptable.

Al, well said. Your expansions are welcome…and wise. Thank you.

Jonathan: Interesting. Perhaps they like what they see in the Religious Right. [That's a joke.]

Perhaps. Or they may feel left out and lonely. Or maybe it’s that they are trying to say they’ve been the true Christians all along? Lots of craftiness there.

Jon & D, I’ve had numerous discussions with both the LDS & JW folks at my front door in the past two or three years & have asked them about their changes of approach in this regard. They have some cleverly crafted replies, but the upshot of it is that they were being dissed by Bible-believers, so they now try to pass themselves off as Christians to draw in the gullible.

The JW ladies assured me that “We believe in Jesus– He’s our Savior.” But when I addressed His divinity, the game was over.

The LDS lads referred me to their website to read articles about Jesus Christ– a complete waste of time, but I appreciate the opportunity to tell them the truth about Him.

They all think that religion is like Burger King
– you can have it your way. ‘Tain’t so– never has been– never will be.

Well there goes my plan to order my mercy extra crispy.

Perhaps you can’t get your mercy to order, but I can promise you it will be both rare and well done…

Do all JW’s call themselves Christian? I’ll have to listen closely for that the next time I have them over. I’ve been meeting with some on most Saturdays for the last two months, and no, I’m not interested in following their doctrine, but I can share my belief with them and we can reason somewhat. It’s and opportunity for the Holy Spirit to work, plus it keeps them off the streets for an hour or so. In the circle I’ve been sharing my faith with, I’ve found the women to be the least hospitable towards me. When we were on the subject of the trinity, we read Colossions 1:15 as their proof to dispel the trinity, then I went on to verse 16 to show evidence of Jesus’ deity, one of them said that Jesus was “a god”. Before that she was comparing Jesus to an angel, but as God’s first created being. It’s interesting and educational and although I don’t think I’ll continue meeting with them much longer, it’s given me an opportunity to learn their reasoning.

@mjason, yours is an interesting perspective.

Inasmuch as JWs are individuals as are the rest of us, “all” probably doesn’t apply to any of their beliefs. My take on the ones who have stopped at my house (never the same ones twice) is not that they actually call themselves Christians, but that they’d very much like me to think that’s what they’re doing…

“Doctrinal: Is it orthodox on the key issues?”
Demian – Out of interest, how do you define ‘orthodox’? If someone, say a Catholic, said that you were unorthodox, how would you answer that?

fropome: Point to the Bible. That is the historic rule of faith.

mjason: No, not all JW’s call themselves Christian. But many are leaning that way these days. This is really interesting that you’ve been able to meet with them. I have experienced that they do not want to even come in my home. Maybe that’s because I told them I was a bona fide Jesus Freak. Anyway, talk to them about Jesus’ resurrection. They do not believe in a physical resurrection, but instead they say Jesus resurrected “spiritually.” When you get to that point, show them where Jesus proved to his disciples that he was NOT just a spirit, but a physical resurrected person (Luke 24:36-49). Note: the word for “spirit” in verse 39 is “pneuma,” which is the same word used in John 3:8, and many other places where “Spirit” is used.

When I did my stint in the JWs, they called themselves Christian. In fact, they claimed they were the TRUE Christians, and everyone else who called themselves such were relegated to the sneering epithet of “Christendom.” Many of the older ones (usually in their fifties or older,) in the two congregations I was a part of didn’t call themselves that very often, though.

Demian: But the ‘unorthodox’ Christian’s also base their beliefs on the Bible.
How do you know that your interpretation is right and theirs is wrong?

How many of their interpretations stand up to the Bible itself? Many quasi-Christian cults (like the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Mormons) merely borrow bits and pieces of their theology from the Bible, then overlay their own agenda over it. The Witnesses are notorious for re-writing entire sections of the New Testament. They use their own “authorized” version of the Bible, the New World Translation, or NWT for short, and discourage the use of any other translation of the Bible. As for the Mormons, they claim that the Bible has been “corrupted” and use the so-called Book of Mormon (containing references to the Bible but with completely unBiblical doctrine added,) as their guideline. Both cults borrow heavily from the Bible, but a simple study of the Book from Genesis to Revelation will reveal gaping holes in their interpretations.

Denita:
Assuming you were answering me…

I wasn’t really speaking about the JWs or mormon’s, so although I think the argument I’m about to use still applies, I’d rather you kept (say) the Catholics or Anglicans in mind.

“How many of their interpretations stand up to the Bible itself?”
They’d say all of them and that yours don’t. You say your interpretations stand up and theirs don’t.
My point is that to every believer who isn’t part of your church, you’re the unorthodox one.

Demian said:
“So, how do you decide whether a religion is compatible with Christianity?… Simple: It needs to pass two tests…Is it orthodox on the key issues?”
I think that when you apply that test, you are necessarily saying that your _interpretation_ of the bible is correct and theirs isn’t… so this isn’t really a test, you’re just saying that you don’t agree with them and then asserting that you are the one who is right.

IOW, a subjective test has little validity to anyone but the subject – and Demian’s ‘test’ is a subjective one.

Fropome, I think I’ve answered this charge before in another comment [not to you, by the way], so I think I smell a post brewing…

Fropome, so how do you know the orthodox interpretation of the Bible is wrong? Is there some test you use to determine that? Is it possible that there is a correct interpretation of the Bible? Any religious truth? How do you determine that?

“Fropome, so how do you know the orthodox interpretation of the Bible is wrong?”
Well, for a start – what _is_ the orthodox interpretation of the bible? Should I believe the Jesuits or the Baptists or the Presbyterians or…

This isn’t a flippant point – it’s part (a small one) of why I’m an atheist.

You haven’t answered my question. And I’m really confused because you seem to think that deviations means…what? I don’t know…but it’s enough to turn you off of atheism.

Okay.

But are you willing to say that one of those denominations is right? Are they all wrong? If so, HOW DO YOU KNOW? That’s all I want to know.

Fropome, your brushing aside my post because it’s “subjective” is smacking of subjectivism itself. What’s the test? What fropome approves of?

I’m curious.

Didn’t answer the question because I thought we’d moved on to the other post – only just noticed this here!

In my opinion none of the denominations are right… because there is probably no God. If you want me to explain why I’m an atheist then fine, but that’s likely to take a long while (and doesn’t really pertain to what we’re talking about).

My point in this thread (as perhaps is more clear from the thread we moved to) is that you are claiming an objective measure of orthodoxy while I think your test is only subjective. If a Catholic using your test gets a different answer, then it’s not a very good test of orthodoxy against any standard other than your personal interpretation.

Will probably circle this for some reason because I’m wondering why I should trust you when you say “your test is only subjective.”

Or is this just your interpretation?

Orthodoxy is the Word of God. Naturally we have to defend why we think we’re right…but by no means “subjective” as you charge.

Aww c’mon Demian… we’ve been covering exactly why I say your test is subjective in, as I say, the thread we moved on to:
http://www.fallenandflawed.com/how-to-answer-thats-just-your-interpretation/

I’ve spent a lot of time and energy on those posts (however little it shows) and you’ve been replying to them – I can understand you not agreeing, but at least acknowledge my argument in your response rather than just asking whether you ‘trust’ me. I’m not offering my interpretation and asking you to trust me, I’m offering an argument which stands or falls on its own merit.

Hinduism is a cool religion that is also oriented towards peace and prosperity.:~:

the religion of my grandfather is Hinduism and he says that it is a great religion.;`”