Fallen and Flawed

I am an Adventist and I think you represent the denomination I belong to in an accurate way which I very much appreciate. I just want to make you aware that like most denominations, there are variations in belief in terms of doctrine among the members. Personally I would consider myself more progressive, focusing more on a gospel centered message than prophecy and eschatology that has been characteristic of traditional or historic Adventism.

Hi,

Found your blog today from the Desiring God blog; I like what I see, and have added you to my RSS feeds!

I just want to correct 3 of your facts. I am a pastor with the Advent Christian General Conference, not the 7th Day Adventists. We are a small, evangelical group that shares a common link to William Miller with the SDA.

Fact # 1: William Miller, a Baptist, NEVER predicted a date for the Second Coming of Christ. He did make calculations according to his understanding of Scripture, and ushing Ussher’s Chronology, among others, that Christ would return sometime between March 1843 and March 1844. When March 1844 had ended, there was great disappointment. Others, at an Exeter, NH campmeeting that William Miller was not in attendance at, were convinced by Elder Samuel Snow that October 22, 1844 was the date of the return of Christ.

Fact # 3: This is a gross simplification and a very uncharitable characterization of what took place in the aftermath of the ‘Great Disappointment’. Adventists have never been ‘united in a close knit’ group. There were several smaller groups, with doctrinal differences, that eventually (early 1860s) began to coalesce into larger groups. The truth is that my denomination, the ACGC and the SDA, while holding Miller as a common figure in our past, have never formed one group of which either is the off-shoot thereof.

Fact # 10: Again, it is a misrepresentation of Adventist theology to say that we (ACGC or SDA) believe in that “sinners will be destroyed RATHER than thrown into hell.” It isn’t an either/or distinction at all. We believe scripture teaches that at the final judgment, all of the wicked, including the devil and the fallen angels, as well as death and hell itself, will be cast into the lake of fire where it will be destroyed. It is not that we don’t believe the wicked will be punished. It is that we believe the scripture does not teach the view of eternal, conscious torment that is the majority report in evangelicalism today.

Otherwise, thank you for an insightful blog. I look forward to reading past posts and enjoying new ones!

Yours for His Kingdom!

Dwayne

JR Thomas: Thank you for the kind thoughts. My goal is to represent accurately, and when I don’t, I want to be corrected…
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@Dwayne: Thank you for the clarity. I apologize for the gross simplification…all I know to say is that was what my sources said. I’ll double check to make sure I quoted properly. On fact #10, if I understand you correctly, hell is what destroys the wicked…but hell is still not the place of eternal physical torment, right? Thanks Dwayne.

I’m a SDA Christian and in answer to Dwayne’s comment about hell…

I do believe that the wicked will be punished and cast into a lake of fire (Rev. 20:15). Seventh-Day Adventists do not believe in an eternally burning hell. Why? Because the Bible doesn’t teach that the wicked will burn forever and ever while the saved are enjoying paradise. In Malachi 4:1 it says, “For behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven;l and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave neither root nor branch.” This verse, along with many others indicate that the fire will burn out. God will cleanse the world with fire (hellfire) and create a new heavens and a new earth (Rev 21:1) and there will be no more pain, tears, etc. cause all the old has passed away (Rev 21:4). I hope I explained that clearly…

Whoops! Typo! That first verse should read “For behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.”

Here’s another thing to thing about…would a loving God allow people, even sinners to suffer forever and ever and ever and ever outside of paradise? God is a God of love. God IS love

E Anderson, I agree with you that God is a God of love…but he’s also a God of mercy, justice, righteousness, holiness and wrath, etc. Not sure why you failed to mention those attributes of God. But I would agree with you if God was JUST a God of love…then it would seem odd for hell to be eternal. In fact, it would seem odd that he’d punish anyone at all, don’t you think? Heck, just let mankind roll over him in their sin, rebellion and rejection…and climb up on his lap when their done. Frankly, that’s unbiblical and offensive to his holiness and justice…and hardly a god anyone could respect, let alone worship.

Thanks for your blog. I wanted to comment on #13 about David Koresh and the Branch Davidians. It needs to be mentioned that David Koresh was a false prophet and the true Branch Davidian SDA’s have undeservedly been clumped in with him. I don’t expect you to know the history of the true B.D.S.D.A but for different look at what happened between Koresh and the B.D. I will direct you to
this link:

http://www.the-branch.org/Koresh%27s_Warfare_Against_True_Branch_Davidians_Doug_Mitchell

It’s always prudent to get both sides of a story before coming to any conclusion. Thanks again for your blog!

Eternal blessings

Rogelio, thanks for the clarification, brother. In Christ.

I’m a Southern Baptist doing a study into the biblical teaching on Hell. So far I’ve come to this simple conclusion. God is just and punishment must be just. There is a Hell but it appears that at some point Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire and annihilated. The original greek terms translated to imply forever could rightfully be interpreted to mean a finality. As my study of this subject continues I’m leaning toward the finality of Hell (and it’s contents) in the Lake of Fire. SDA may have something there. Enjoy your blog.

Kevin, I am SOuthern Baptist, 57 y/o and have always had difficulty with the concept of eternal suffering for the lost. I enjoyed your comments and would love to know more. I have looked for books but the sources are for or against, I’d like research of someone who is trying to decide. Good blog.

My problem of belief with the 7th day Adventist is this, I have read the Bible many times and one can walk away with some different views but I don’t see how one can mistake what Paul refers to as the rapture, it seems to be based on one of the past, present or post millennialism thoughts, one can make many assumptions about in fact that of changing how one will view the Bible as a whole?
Based on the National Sunday Law I received in the mail, their logic makes since as I see GOD working in bigger strokes than our human minds can comprehend?
There is I believe much that this sect does not also take in and in the end were all just sects – and it will be GOD that brings us together, not one SECT! All through Christ and all in Christ – Amen!

I’m SDA, and accoring to my research hell does not excist as yet. And is also not a place for eternal suffering. I like how E. Anderson explained it. If hell excist already, then there is no need for judgement day right bretheren? Cause then you’ve been judged already. God said He shall destroy evil, how can evil be destroyed if it’s eternally suffering? That means it’s still there and present, God want it GONE. How would u feel if ur living eternally and u know somewhere somehow there is a hell still burning people u know.. wouldn’t u question God? I didn’t post this to bring conflict… just wanted to express myself

Hi Demian: just came across your website while doing a search on “memorizing scripture”. And, I like what I see so far.

I wanted to add to the comments here and throw out my understanding of what the Bible has to say about hell.

Malachi 4:3 says: “Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ASHES under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things,” says the LORD Almighty.” So we see here that the wicked are turned to ashes; completely destroyed. Thus, they are not burning throughout eternity.

Some might point to Matthew 3:12 as proof that hell is forever burning: “His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with UNQUENCHABLE fire.” This means a fire that can’t be put out or “quenched.” It doesn’t mean that the fire won’t go out by itself once it has consumed everything.

In Jeremiah 17:27, God predicted that Jerusalem would be burned with unquenchable fire due to apostasy: “But if you do not obey me to keep the Sabbath day holy by not carrying any load as you come through the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will kindle an unquenchable fire in the gates of Jerusalem that will consume her fortresses.’ ”
2 Chronicles 36:19: “They set fire to God’s temple and broke down the wall of Jerusalem; they burned all the palaces and destroyed everything of value there.” Obviously, Jerusalem is not still burning today; rather, the fire could not be put out until it had completely consumed everything.

We also see this in Jude 1:7: “In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.” Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning today? No. But the results of that fire are eternal or forever; those residents are gone.

Jonah is a great example of the usage of the word “forever”: “To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in FOREVER. But you brought my life up from the pit, O LORD my God.” Jonah 2:6 In Jonah’s case, he was not in the tummy of the whale “forever” or “eternally”, but rather for 3 days. And “forever” in Samuel’s case meant for his lifetime. “But Hannah did not go up, for she said to her husband, “Not until the child is weaned; then I will take him, that he may appear before the LORD and remain there FOREVER.” 1 Samuel 1:22 “Therefore I also have lent him to the LORD; as long as he lives he shall be lent to the LORD.” So they worshiped the LORD there.” 1 Samuel 1:28

“These shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,” 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Based on the above text, we can see that the destruction lasts forever; that sinners will never live again. But they are not being destroyed eternally, ie burning forever and ever in torment and anguish.

I agree with the other commenters that God IS love; but He is also just and will not let sin go on forever. Just look at Sodom and Gomorrah as well as the great flood. The Bible also says that while He will destroys the wicked, this is a strange act for Him; He takes no pleasure in destroying the wicked, for these are His children as well: “Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’ Ezekiel 33:11 He loves everyone and I think this shows the true character of God; that He is not vindictive and hateful, but rather merciful, just and loving. He wants as many in Heaven who will possibly accept Him. I believe this is one of the reasons that He has not come yet, because He is so patient and wants none to be lost as seen in this passage: “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Blessings,
In Him,
Bert

Thank you for your thoughtful response, Bert! I’m glad to see you.

Hello everyone.

I used to be a Pentecostal. Now I’m not sure what I can classify myself with. I happen to speak modern Greek, but have always taken as “fact” that the KJV was an exact translation of the Greek NT. Only recently within the past couple of years did I undertake a serious comparison (literally having 2 Bibles in front of me, the KJV, and the Stephanus Greek NT 1550).

I cannot explain the level of shock when I started to see MAJOR differences in doctrine, to the point in where I am now in almost 100% agreement with 7th Day Adventists in that “Hell” will most likely be annihilation. The evidence is so overwhelming in favour of that view, that I can’t see why it’s not widely accepted?

You guys are free to E-mail me at: megalotsouts@gmail.com if you have any questions about what I have found.

if God is just gonna save everyone then why would we have Jesus at all, your saying that Jesus being crucified was done in vein or maybe you don’t believe in him at all which I’m sure God won’t condone, so why have Satan, why have anything, then repenting for sin and the fall of man is meaning less. You are basically saying no one is going to hell, God does love everyone but he’s not going to save someone who doesn’t beleive in him or love him back. Life and your choices you make in life have consequences.

Hi Adam
I don’t think that is what they are saying at all. I am a SDA and I believe that hell will not be eternal. I think you misunderstand the prior comments, they aren’t saying there is no hell and God is going to let everyone go – what they are attempting to say is that, people will burn in hell and die, they will not be tortured forever in a never ending fire called hell, and that eventually, once all sinners and all sin is consumed and the Earth is purified, hell will be no more.

Here is a great website that deals with the topic of hell that I have found very helpful. I hope it may be a blessing to others seeking God’s truth: http://www.helltruth.com/