Fallen and Flawed

I agree!

If only I could leave it at that for once! Haha.

I’m a bit on the fence as to the nature of what happens in the “inbetween” – but definitely not soul sleep. I once would have completely agreed with the “spirit in paradise” type view, and I don’t necessarily disagree, I’m just a bit confused .
When we studied the topic at Uni (College) a point was made regarding how the afterlife relates to judgment. For instance, what is the significance of a final judgment if we are already judged? How is it that some are sent out of God’s presence in death, and others are united with God BEFORE judgment? Where do the unregenerate await judgement? Because doesn’t their very being there mean they have been found “guilty” – and is being cast out of God’s prescence not the worst punishment?
Similarly, if we can exist in a spiritual state in the prescence of God without ressurected bodies, why do we need the bodies?

I don’t have much of an alternative, and I still agree that what you said seems to be the most biblical approach – I just find it a bit bizzare in parts.
So please feel free to answer my questions anyone.

I immediately thought of the repentant thief on the cross; “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23: 43)

Oh man….You would post this after I just get back from a punishing hike up Enchanted Rock…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enchanted_Rock

I’ll get back to this tomorrow–after a long hot soak, a good sleep, and a bucket of Tylenols.

Sorry for creating a headache, however I believe with all my heart that our life after death will begin immediately. My strongest evidence is this statement from Christ himself. Have a blessed week! JS

This is such a great topic! People don’t talk about death enough. I think many folks are afraid and confused by it and so feel its better to just avoid the topic all together. So thank you for bringing it to everyone’s attention.

I know that the Bible doesn’t tell us every single detail about what happens after we die. Some things are better left to experience. But Christians have nothing to fear.

Alyssa: Christians do not get judged after death. We do have all our acts in life tested for their worth to see whether-or-not we get rewards, crowns. These crowns are then our privilege to give back to Jesus. I wrote an entire post a while back about this very topic. Feel free to drop by and visit.

As for what happens to those who do not accept Christ and are taken from God’s presence, read 2 Peter 2: 4-10. Granted the chapter talks about false prophets but it is interesting to read what God has to say about their fates.

Alyssa, great, penetrating questions that I don’t have an answer to. Yet. But I have a feeling that IF and WHEN I do have an answer it won’t be satisfying. So goes the doctrines that are the Last Things. I had in trouble, in fact, writing that second to last line “unregenerate person dies…await final judgment.” My sources all agreed that was true, but never addressed the questions you asked [and I asked myself]. I have a feeling they think it’s plain, but just don’t have the objectivity to see that other people don’t see it as plain. Anyway, Last Things are doctrines neglected in the US church and should not be. Christ certainly didn’t overlook them.

Denita: Excellent hike! Look forward to hearing more about it.

Jimbo: Great quote from Jesus himself.

Sincerity: Thank you for dropping by. Will take a look at your post when I get the time.

I don’t think we are immediateley judged, so I don’t know where I sit. I have to look deeper into what ’soul sleep’ actually means, but it doesn’t seem ridiculous. The bible talks of the dead as being asleep so much that it doesn’t seem like when we die we get our reward. Maybe we do, but not in our concept of time. Maybe that’s ’soul sleep’- simply a difference in our dimension of time and God’s dimension of time? Doesn’t it say that David hasn’t ascended to heaven? Is that talking about his soul or was that David reference in Acts 2 referring to a type of bodily resurrection?

I’m sure everybody is aware of the punctuation issue with the greek writing pertaining to the gospels, so there is some debate over where the comma in Luke 23:43 should be- before today some say, after today some say. It bears further investigation, but.

btw, are any doctrines built on the concept of immediate reward or soul sleep? I’m talking about a house of cards type of thing. I don’t see any reason for division or dissention regarding this subject. Seems like it is not important (salvation-wise) which you believe.

Interesting subject.

I think there may be some insight to be gained about this topic when we look at the transfiguration in Luke 9: 28-36.

Jesus’ face and body not only transforms, he is also standing and talking with Moses and Elijah, who are similarly “in glorious splendor.”

These two Old Testament saints, long since dead, are obviously with God, and their bodies, as well as Christ’s temporarily, are no longer flesh and blood, but yet are still bodies.

Demian,

This is an excellent example how different interpretations of the Bible lead to different conclusions, and how you can “pick and choose” the Bible to find support for whatever you want to believe in. You “prove” immortality of the soul, but to do so you have to explain away the texts that talk about “soul sleep”. An Adventist will do exactly the opposite to prove his/her belief. The reality is that there are different points of view and different beliefs in the Bible.

In addition, in the Hebrew Bible there is no belief in an afterlife whatsoever – see Job 14 or Ecclesiastes 3:18-22. The only way was to “be fruitful and multiply” and live through one’s descendants – like in the case of the mytical Abraham.

As a few people already pointed out, there is a certain logical problem here. If people are judged “at the end of time”, then they should be all awaiting the judgement in the same state. Purgatory/limbo makes sense then. If people go to “heaven” and “hell” as soon as they die, then a later judgement is a judicial farce. You can’t have it both ways. For an unknown reason, you did not mention reincarnation, and it is also a valid option – you can find quite a few convincing arguments for reincarnation in the Bible too (easy to Google up if you are interested). In my personal opinion this is all to be taken metaphorically anyway, like almost all of the Bible, so calling something “deviant” just because we have a different point of view or preconception goes a bit too far.

Jag, hope you forgive me for going “too far,” but deviant does mean outside the mainstream…and well, Adventist are just that.

You like that “your interpretation” argument, don’t you? I’m not saying your doing this, but that argument is often a smokescreen for pursuing one’s own agenda. Let’s see.

So, can a perspective on Bible texts ever be right? Can a interpretation ever be correct? Are some things not a matter of perspective–flat v. round earth? And how do you know that my interpretation isn’t right and theirs wrong?

Even if we don’t always get things right, we can decide that some perspectives approximate truth better than others…

Which does a better job at delivering objective news: Wall Street Journal or National Enquirer? According to your current principle, whatever you say is just your perspective.

But I don’t think you believe that.

We can’t escape objectivity, Jag. To do so is in fact to affirm it’s existence. And I think the orthodox view of life after death better approximate’s the truth than an Adventist’s affirmation of soul sleep.

By the way, this statement is wrong: Hebrew Bible there is no belief in an afterlife. See my Death post. [Granted, the Hebrews didn't embrace a sophisticated view of afterlife, but it was there.]

Demian,

Thank you for your clarification. In the dictionaries I consulted I get different definitions of the adjective deviant to yours:

“deviant behaviour is not considered normal or morally correct by most people
Synonyms or related words for this meaning of deviant: evil, wicked, gross, immoral, sordid”

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/deviant

But then maybe in American English the word is not so strong. so if you intend your blog for Americans only, then I have to apologise.

Also, all depends how you define mainstream as well. I don’t see how Adventists would be outside it, though I do not intend to argue on that. If there is an Adventist here, then they may want to do it.

Biblical scholars look at their texts from various angles. You are right, they do have an agenda. The ones that represent a particular denomination seem to be more biased though – they will be tempted to show that what they believe (=already believe) is confirmed by the Bible. On the other hand, non-religious and even liberal scholars can afford to “forget” everything they know and study the Bible “for the first time again”, to paraphrase the title of Marcus Borg’s great introduction to the Bible. Their agenda can be to have a clear mind and no preconceptions.

Even then, we have to face the fact that it is possible to interpret the same thext differently. And it will all go down to whose interpretation appeals more to you and be. I guess that’s what you are talking about when you say that “we can decide that some perspectives approximate truth better than others” – it is bound to be personal and subjective.

If something happens (eg. earthquake in Haiti, Olympics in Vancouver etc.) it is a fact. When someone writes an article in a newspaper about it, it is a report, not a fact. And a report always contains elements of interpretation (what you focus on etc.). Naturally some newspapers are better in reporting facts than others.

Personally, I remain quite agnostic when it comes to afterlife. It is not that important to me. Which is why I won’t argue for or against the “orthodox” view or the Adventist view (though it seems more logical to me). I just recognise that you are being subjective and pick and choose the biblical texts that you like over those you like less. Nothing wrong with that – we all do it.

I will also gladly have aq look at your death post.

Could it be that both are right from different perspectives? Could it be from all of us who are alive, it is our perspective that those who die are indeed asleep in their graves, but when those who have died they are taken out of the realm of time and enter into what we in the physical realm would see as the future, when it is all said and done? It is like a movie, we are all viewers of this movie and from the perspective of the movie producer and director and those actors in it, it is a finished product, but for the viewer it is a present reality when we watch the movie, for us it is happening now, but from the perspective of the actors, it was done a long time ago? Just a metaphor here. God said that he is a God of the living even though he list people who are dead and buried and from his prospective and those who died and entered the ‘no time zone’ they are truly all alive, but for us who are still alive here on earth,we consider adam and abraham and all of the people who have died, are all dead and asleep in the earth.At death we enter into the ‘it is finished ‘ world of God even though in the physical realm we are not there yet from our perspective it is all still in the future, the resurrection, the 1000yrs, the jugdement. So that is why we see both perspectives in the Bible . I am from the camp that believes the first chapter of Genisis is God stating the truth , it is all good,God sees the begining and the end at the same time, the first chapter is really our past history and yet it is the prophecy of our true self and yet it is still in our future as well , from our perpective it is both our past and our future state.When Jesus said ‘It is Finished’ I believe from God’s perspective it is, we just have to catch up with it. Just another perspective

Genesis 3:19 “In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou returnest unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”

Genesis 3:22 “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:”

Job 10:8-9 “Your hands shaped me and made me. Will you now turn and destroy me? Remember that you molded me like clay. Will you now turn me to dust again?”

Job 14:10–12. “10But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.”

Isaiah 26:19. “19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.”

Daniel 12:2 “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

John 5:28–30. “28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

# John 6:40. “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
# John 6:44. “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
# John 6:54. “Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
# John 12:48. “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

Hi Nath, thanks for the verses. What are you getting at, though? Little confused.

That God makes it clear from the start that we return unto dust when we die. And at the second coming those that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to eternal life, others to eternal death. eternal life is a gift that Christ brings with him at His coming, not before.

Nath, ah…got it. Thank you.

So far I have 120 verses that all say man sleeps in the dust of the earth when he dies.

Nathan, this is not an issue I’m willing to die on the hill over, so I’ll answer your question and then leave it alone:

At first blush it seems you might have a case. The problem is these verses have been wrenched out of their context.

Besides, you have texts that demonstrate the opposite [see above in the original article under the heading "Orthodox View of the Soul After Death" for examples.]

The clinchers, of course, being Revelations 6:10 and Luke 23:43.

By the way, Nath, are you a Christian? [I'm assuming you are, but just wanted to clarify.]

Guys,

Before you face off quoting the Bible… has it occured to you that the Bible may be speaking in many voices?

In the most ancient judaism (see the Hexateuch) there is absolutely no concept of life after death. The best you can do is live long and leave many descendants. The Saducees were very orthodox when it came to that. There’s hardly any concept of life after death in the whole of the Hebrew Bible, in fact.

On the other hand, I recently read an article on the net explaining that the Bible teaches about reincarnation. You can easily google it up if you are interested.

Therefore, to each its own. I will not die for any of those ideas. Time will tell – we’ll see then?

The verses are not wrenched out of their context, they are straight forward plain verses. Rev 6:10 is symbolic as all things in Revelation are, it is alluding back to Genesis 4:10 when Abel’s blood cried out for justice. “The LORD said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground.”
Luke 23:43 is easily explained. There are no full stops or commas in the Greek language, so it could easily read “Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise.”. Christ himself makes it clear in the Gospel of John that he will raise you up on the LAST DAY to receive eternal life, not before. John 5:28 # “28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54, John 12:48.

Hey Nath,

You said, “Rev 6:10 is symbolic as all things in Revelation are.” That’s an interesting statement. How’d you come to that conclusion?

And this is an interesting insight: “It is alluding back to Genesis 4:10 when Abel’s blood cried out for justice.” I’m curious: What makes you think that’s true?

Thank you sir.

At the start of Revelation it tells you. Rev 1:1 “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and SIGNIFIED it by his angel unto his servant John:”. Signified comes from the Greek word Sameion(Think that’s how it is spelt), which means:To speak in signs and symbols. The whole book is symbolic, and the symbols in the book are mainly Sanctuary symbols, like the 7 candles, the altar, the 2 olive trees, 2 lampstands etc.

Any bible with a good margin in it will tell you whereabouts from the OT the symbolism of Rev 6:10 comes from. It is symbolic with Leviticus 4:7 where the blood was poured out at the base of the altar, we also know the life is in the blood in Leviticus 17:11, Genesis 9:4. When a victim was sacrificed unto the Lord, the blood of that sacrificial victim (and martyrs are most definitely “sacrificial victims”) was to be poured out at the BASE of the altar. That blood then flowed beneath the altar of sacrifice. Abel was the first martyr in the bible, and in Genesis 4:10 we read his blood crieth from the ground, so is the symbolism at the end, where the blood of all the martyrs of the great tribulation crieth out to God as well. Also notice that they are told to REST a little longer, which is more symbolism alluding to the sleep of death.

Would also like to add, one of the things that goes right against Luke 23:43 is that Jesus himself didn’t go to paradise that day. He went there 40 days after His resurrection(John 20:17).

Nathan: Good thoughts. I enjoy the challenging discussion.

1. You got me thinking here. Interested in hunting down some info.

2. Your second comment makes sense until you get to the part about Abel. Maybe I’m missing it, but he wasn’t a “sacrifice.” He was murdered.

Also, when you say, “…they are told to REST a little longer, which is more symbolism alluding to the sleep of death” that means they were awake at one point, right? So they were asleep, then awoke, and now back asleep? And why is it symbolism for “sleep of death”? Couldn’t “rest” symbolize something else?

3. Good point.

1.I should add that everything in Revelation is symbols based on the what happened in and around the Sanctuary.
2.Abel was a Martyr who died for his beliefs. He and his brother represent the two people of end times, they both claim to worship God, one worships God in obedience to God’s will, and the other worships God in disobedience, rather with his own will. The one who worships God in disobedience kills his brother who worships God in obedience, which is exactly what Revelation says will happen in the end.

They were only awake in the sense of the vision John had, and it is also part of the 7 seals being opened, so once again it is not a literal interpretation, but a symbolic one full of meaning as I have explained. The symbolism of the souls under the altar is also just for those who had come out of great tribulation, not literally everyone who has ever died a believer from all generations.

Wow, that’s an interesting interpretation on Abel. Why would you read that into the text? HOW do you get that out of the text?

By the way, even though Jesus was on the earth 40 days doesn’t mean God wasn’t in heaven.

Anyway, good talking to you. Gotta go.

You need to read Genesis 4:1-16.
Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. 3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD. 4 But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.

6 Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.”

(By the way, even though Jesus was on the earth 40 days doesn’t mean God wasn’t in heaven.)

What are you getting at? Christ said “you will be with me in paradise” Yet he wasn’t there until 40 days after His resurrection.
John 14:2 “In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I WILL COME BACK AND TAKE YOU TO BE WITH ME THAT YOU ALSO MAY BE WHERE I AM.”
This last verse makes it obvious that no one is in heaven yet, and Christ is coming back again to gather all that are His!
Matthew 5:5 “Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth” Not heaven!

Show me one verse in the bible that says man has an immortal soul that goes to heaven when he dies?

Here is a question from an Open Door Baptist Pastor.
Dear Ritchie, From what I have read of your writing it is fairly obvious that you believe in the teaching known as soul sleep. However, if we accept literally what Paul wrote to the Corinthian Church, in 2 Corinthians 5:8, where he reveals that being absent from the body after death means being present with the Lord, then clearly those that God will bring with the Lord Jesus (1 Thess 4:14) are the souls who are in heaven.
Pastor R.C.

Dear R.C.
In 2 Corinthians 5 Paul discusses two states of man, the present state of the earthly body or ‘tent’ (see also 2 Pet. 1:13), and the future state of the heavenly body or building. These are the only two options Paul offers in this passage; he does not refer to an intermediary state. The word ’soul’ is not mentioned and has to be read into the text. In 2 Corinthians 5:4 Paul says he did not look forward to death when he would be ‘unclothed’ or ‘naked’; rather he looked forward to the time when he would be clothed with his heavenly dwelling, at which time his mortality would ‘be swallowed up by life’(1 Cor. 15:53). Paul then goes on to say that as long as we are at home in our current mortal bodies we will be away from the Lord. Indeed, he would prefer to be away from his mortal body and present with the Lord[in his immortal body](2 Cor.5:6-9). CONTINUED…

With regard to your reference to 1 Thessalonians 4:14,’God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.’This should be understood as 2 Corinthians 4:14 is understood. This latter verse says:’We know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence.’ Now it’s quite obvious that we weren’t literally raised with Jesus two thousand years ago. So what did Paul mean? R.V.G. Tasker says: ‘The preposition means “in virtue of our union with Jesus”. All who are “in Christ” remain “in Christ”, whether they be alive or dead. His resurrection is the pledge of their resurrection’(Tyndale NT Commentaries on 2 Corinthians 4:14). Just as we were ‘raised with Christ’(Col.2:12; 3:1), and were ’seated with him in heavenly realms’(Eph.2:6),so when Christ appears, then we also will ‘appear with him in glory’(Col.3:4;1 Thes.4:14).At that time ‘the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus’(2 Cor.4:14;1 Thes.4:16). Kind Regards, Ritchie.

Demian,

Unless you can come up with the goods, than I suggest you change the headline of this blog to

“Immortality of the Soul(A deviant doctrine you must avoid)”

That sounds like a bad idea, Nath. If no immortality of the soul, what’s the point of resurrection?

Are you serious? its the other way around Demian, if we have an immortal soul that is already in heaven, than what is the point of a resurrection?. But if when we die we lay asleep in the grave, than there is every point to a resurrection, because eternal life is the gift that Christ brings with him on the LAST DAY.

Nath, you said I should change the topic of the post to “Immortality of the soul [deviant doctrine to avoid]“, right? Are you suggesting the soul isn’t immortal?

I think I see where you are going: Since you affirm soul sleep, resurrection raises that soul and body, right?

Regarding the resurrection, that’s for the body. spirit is with God immediately, our bodies raised at THE resurrection. 1 Cor 15

Spirit is not a soul Demian. To find out what spirit is you need to go back to the creation of Adam.

Genesis 2:7 “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils His spirit(also translated ‘Breath of life’ Nephesh); and MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL.”(Notice it never states that man was given a soul, but rather HE BECAME A LIVING SOUL, when God’s spirit entered the man formed out of dust).
Death is the reverse of creation-

Ecclesiastes 12:7 “and the dust returns to the ground it came from,and the SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD WHO GAVE IT.”

Psalm 104:29-30 “when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust. When you send YOUR SPIRIT, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth.”(This is speaking about the resurrection and the new earth).

Job 34:14-16 “if he gather unto himself HIS SPIRIT and HIS BREATH; All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.”

There are many many more verses like these Demian, as I have said, so far I have over 120 verses that support soul sleep, and counting.

You on the other hand have not provided me with one bit of scripture so far that supports an immortal soul, because it is a FALLEN and FLAWED Doctrine.

1 Corinthians 15:22 “22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, WHEN HE COMES, those who belong to him.

The whole way through 1 Corinthians 15 death is called a SLEEP.

Dang it! I hate it when people use the title of my blog against me. ;-]

Anyway, if I gave you 120 verses with the word “prosperity” in it, do we conclude there is a “prosperity gospel”? I hope your answer is no. Besides, many verses you use I can use to defend a case for hell and immortal souls.

Also, if SS was so clear why isn’t it more pervasive? Why has it been rejected for over 1700 years, with no indication of gaining any ground? Why isn’t it more obvious to first-time readers?

Moreover, you don’t have 120 verses on soul sleep. You have verses that suggest men die–and that’s it. You don’t get any real mention of resurrection until the NT where resurrection is fully realized–which you need to support SS.

So you’re doing a little exegetical work. Just not enough.

Listen, what’s probably at play here is that you and I have settled on points of view and now we see evidence for those POVs everywhere–at the expense of opposing evidence.

The good news is that you and I can disagree on this topic and still live under the same roof. So let’s not drag it on. We’re getting nowhere. I’ll shut up now–as I said I would about 20 comments ago.

Take care.

Demian,

All you have done here is try to put together a cleverly written reply that has nothing biblical in it, and you still have not answered the question on showing one verse that says man has a soul that cannot die.
If you think because the view has not been popular over church tradition for the last 1700 years that it is wrong you better think again. Catholicism brought all these pagan beliefs of an immortal soul, eternal suffering in hellfire etc in to Christianity, and its views have dominated Christianity ever since. The apples did not fall far from the tree in the reformation, and pretty much all Protestant churches still have one foot in Rome still to this day.
You are wrong in saying the resurrection really appears in the NT, it is all the way through the OT.
Job speaks of it(and Job is one of the oldest books in the bible).

Job 14:10–12. “10But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12So man lieth down, and riseth not: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.”

When will the heavens be no more?

2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,

Revelation 6:14 “And the HEAVEN DEPARTED AS A SCROLL when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.”

Job 19:25–28. “25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.”

Job here is saying that his redeemer is going to stand on the earth on the LAST DAY. And even though his body gets destroyed by worms in the grave, he will see the Lord i9n the flesh, which is pointing to the resurrection of the LAST DAY Christ spoke about.

David speaks of the resurrection-

Psalm 17:14-15 “From men which are thy hand, O LORD, from men of the world, which have their portion in this life, and whose belly thou fillest with thy hid treasure: they are full of children, and leave the rest of their substance to their babes. As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.”

He is stating that the godless only live for this life, but David awaits the resurrection, when he will be satisfied with Gods face when he awakes out of his sleep.

Isaiah speaks of the resurrection-

Isaiah 26:19. “19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.”

Isaiah 29:5-6 “But your many enemies will become like fine dust, the ruthless hordes like blown chaff. Suddenly, in an instant, the LORD Almighty will come with thunder and earthquake and great noise, with windstorm and tempest and flames of a devouring fire.”

Ezekiel speaks of the resurrection-

Ezekiel 37:12-14 “Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.”

Daniel speaks of the resurrection-

Daniel 12:2 “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

Daniel 12:13 “But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.”

Maybe this might shock you in to waking up to the fact that church tradition is based on mans theology, not Gods. Show me one verse that says man has a soul that cannot die, and lives forever?

Demian,

I say again, start coming up with the goods, or change the headline to Immortality of the soul A FALLEN AND FLAWED DOCTRINE.

Jimbo noted: “I immediately thought of the repentant thief on the cross; “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23: 43)

That does indeed say that Jesus would be in Paradise that day. There’s several problems with this:

1) We are told that Jesus was in the earth, and that his soul was not left in hell in Acts 2:31

2) Immediately after his resurrection, Jesus affirmed that he had not yet ascended to his father in John 20:17 (he had not yet gone to Paradise)

3) It would seem rather strange for the thief to ask concerning “when you come into your kingdom” and for Jesus to answer something completely different.

4) Finally, and most importantly, the first English Bible that read like Jimbo’s statement above was the Revised Standard Version in 1881 (a deviant translation) and has been echoed by modern bibles like the NIV, NASB, NKJV, etc.

The correct text says “Verily, I say unto you, to day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.”

There’s a difference between “today you will” and “today thou shalt.” The former is a prediction, and today modifies the “when” it will happen. The latter is a command, or a declaration, and the “to day” modifies the giving of that command.

If you don’t believe me, look up “wilt” and “shalt” as given in Fowler’s “The King’s English”, or check how the King James translators demonstrated the use of “shalt” in 1 Samuel 18:21…

“to day thou shalt be my son in law in one of the twain…”

Yet the King James translators knew full well that Saul wasn’t promising that David would become his son-in-law that day. The promise was made that day, which is why it says “this day thou shalt….”

When you receive a check, there’s a signature and a date on the check. The date on the check is the “shalt” part of it, not necessarily the date that the check is redeemed.

Christ hasn’t come into his kingdom yet, and “Paradise” is the abode of God. That thief isn’t in Paradise, but he shall be, and the entire world has witnessed when that promise was made.

Just remember the Ten Commandments: they do not say “Thou will not commit adultery.” That would make God a liar the first time someone adulterized. The words “shall” and “will” cannot be freely swapped, without changing the meaning of the text.

The verse you quoted not only contradicts other parts of the Bible, but it’s a recent creation. John Wycliffe and William Tyndale not only translated the scriptures into English, but they were also what you call “soul sleep.”

Frankly, the “ever conscious never-dying soul” doctrine is the one relying on modified versions verses taken out of context. I agree with Nathan: I think you should change the title of this blog entry.

By the way, I’ll answer Nathan’s challenge. Here’s a verse that says that man’s soul cannot die, and will live for ever:

Gen 3:4 KJV
(4) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

But we all saw that one coming, didn’t we?

Talk with me directly by email, and I’ll answer anything you care to ask me on this topic. I’m don’t like writing on blogs: they’re a little limited in formatting, space, etc.

Take care,
-Andrew

Hi Andrew,

Wow, nice reply, I have never thought of it like that before, but it makes perfect sense.
Its funny mate, Demian wrote this blog, and has a massive attack at the biblical view of death, but now I have challenged him on his views, he actually has nothing to support an immortal soul, and he has done a runner after trying to use his own flawed philosophy. All I want is some biblical proof!!!

Don’t be shy to visit their other blog page “Hell: What’s at Stake If We Neglect It?”

I think you could have some interesting views to add too.

P.S what is your email?

Nath

Demian,

The problem you have is a typical misunderstanding of what the term “soul” is as used in the Bible. You appear to start with the premise that soul can be separated from the body. I don’t believe this can be justified from the Bible. In Genesis 2:7 Dust + Breath = Living Soul or “living being”. The Hebrew word used is nephesh and is also used of the animals, birds and fish (Genesis 1:20,21,24,30; 2:19 etc.). You can easily verify this by checking a good concordance and lexicon. The same Hebrew word is also used of dead persons amongst other things and often as a personal pronoun.

Soul or “nephesh” (or Greek “psuche” in the NT)basically refers to the whole being.

The mistake that many in the Church have made is in importing an unbiblical idea of soul which originated in pagan Greek philosophy, developed by Aristotle, Plato and others; and eventually by some in the church who were themselves brought up under Greek philosophical ideas.

As`Andrew Patrick points out above, Satan’s first lie to man in Genesis 3:4 introduces the lie than man cannot die, and most, if not all pagan belief systems incorparate this lie to some extent.

It seems strange to me that God would reveal the immortal nature of the soul to pagan Greek philosophers hundreds of years before Christ but fail to reveal this to the Old Testament writers under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

To the Old Testament writers, the dead know nothing, they don’t think, they are silent, they can make no plans, they can’t communicate with God. Yet, as Nath points out above, they did have a hope of a bodily resurrection at the last day.

Who am I to believe? the inspired writers of scripture or Plato?

Regards
Andrew

Demian,

I see you have quoted from John Milton in your Mother’s Day Blog. You might be interested to know that he also wrote the following passages in his “A Treatise on Christian Doctrine”:

“It may be inferred, unless we had rather take the heathen writers for our teachers respecting the nature of the soul, that man is a living being, intrinsically and properly one and individual not compounded or separable, not – according to the common opinion – made up and formed of two distinct and separate natures … for man himself, the whole man, when finally created, is called in express terms, ‘a living soul’”.

“The death of the body is the loss or extintion of life. The common definition, which supposes it to consist in the separation of soul and body, is inadmissible.”

“Inasmuch then as the whole man in uniformly said to consist of body, spirit, and soul (whatever may be the distinct provinces severally assigned to these divisions), I will show, that in death, first, the whole man, and secondly, each component part suffers privation of life. It is to be observed, first of all, that God cenouced the punishment of death against the whole man that sinned, without excepting any part. For what could be more just, than that he who had sinned in his whole person, should die in his whole person? Or, on the other hand, what could be more absurd than that the mind, which is the part principally offending, should escape the threatened death; and that the body alone, to which immortality was equally allotted, before death came into the world by sin, should pay the penalty of sin by undergoing death, though not implicated in the transgression.”

“Nor do we read anywhere that the souls assemble, or are summoned to judgement from heaven or from hell, but that they are called out of the tomb, or at least that they were previously in the state of the dead.”

“If the soul of Lazarus, that is, if Lazarus himself was not within the grave, why did Christ call on the lifeless body which could not hear? If it were the soul which he addressed, why did he call it from a place where it was not?”

Regards
Andrew

Demian,

Are you now agreeing with the biblical view of death?

Nath

Nath, there’s a fine line between challenging someone and hassling them. I want Demian to feel free to answer.

Since you asked, my email address is listed on the home page linked to my name on the post. For anyone who wants to check, they could find it that way.

Demian – you’d asked: “Also, if SS was so clear why isn’t it more pervasive? Why has it been rejected for over 1700 years, with no indication of gaining any ground?”

Answer: It did – it made tremendous progress in the Protestant Reformation. For example, if I were asked to compare and contrast the following four men:

1) John Wycliffe
2) William Tyndale
3) Martin Luther
4) John Calvin

I would answer that the first three all worked to translate the scriptures into their common tongues (English and German), and all taught “soul sleep” or wrote against “immortality of the soul”,

But I would also point out that while the last on the list wrote against all of the former, but is also noted for being called “the Protestant Pope” and burning people at the stake for disagreeing with him.

I’ve still seen some of John Calvin’s arguments against “soul sleep” repeated to this very day. Specifically, Calvin argued (in Psychopannachia, also titled “The imaginary sleep of the dead”) that “There is no peace, saith my God, for the wicked” (Isaiah 57:20) was talking about death, yet he seemed absolutely ignorant of huge passages like Job chapter 3 that specifically say that all men, including the wicked, find rest … specifically when they are dead.

Job 3:17-22 KJV
(17) There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.
(18) There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.
(19) The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.
(20) Wherefore is light given to him that is in misery, and life unto the bitter in soul;
(21) Which long for death, but it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures;
(22) Which rejoice exceedingly, and are glad, when they can find the grave?

Can anyone here honestly tell me that Isaiah 57:20 is in the context of the state of the dead? So why are people still parroting John Calvin?

As Henry Constable (late 1800’s) noted, when Queen Elizabeth revised the laws of the English church, they were changed to where it was no longer required to affirm to the Roman Catholic doctrine of “immortality of the soul” – thus Anglican ministers were free to teach from the bible on this subject.

You might be interested in reading works by Henry Constable related to this subject:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/15929547/Constable-The-Duration-and-Nature-of-Future-Punishment

I guess I might ask Demian, how come the doctrine of Purgatory survived for so long, unless it is true? Purgatory has been around for almost as long as “Soul Insomnia” (SI).

Demian also asked: Why isn’t it more obvious to first-time readers?”

It’s plenty obvious to first time readers, who haven’t first been brainwashed with “immortal soul” propaganda. Most normal people know what the words “destroy” and “perish” and “death” mean in their normal context, and have little difficulty understanding what it means when the scripture says “the dead sleep.”

The fact that so many people argue against “soul sleep” demonstrates that the plain English is plenty descriptive enough.

Joh 11:11-14 KJV
(11) These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
(12) Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
(13) Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
(14) Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

I’ve also had the experience of showing people plain scriptures on this subject, and they agree (that the dead sleep) until they discover that they suffer persecution from their friends, pastors, or spouses.

The very words “perish” and “destroy” and “consume” speak volumes, and it’s the very language that “immortal soul” proponents have to argue against, usually with emotional responses like “we all know the soul never dies” or “my pastor said such-and-such and he is such a nice man…” or “I just know in my heart that my soul is immortal…”

Anyway, please remember, you did start this blog entry, calling “soul sleep” a “deviant doctrine” so it’s not really fair to bow out and say it’s not important.

Luk 14:27-30 KJV
(27) And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
(28) For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
(29) Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
(30) Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

I do have a final question for Demian though, concerning the title of his blog. Since you call it a “Deviant Doctrine to Avoid” … what’s so harmful about it?

I mean, I could point out that the “Soul Insomnia” doctrine that you seem to hold defies God as the author of life, and is indeed blasphemous, saying that every man has life in himself as God has life in himself, and renders the gospel of salvation, the gift of eternal life absolutely meaningless…

I could also point out that “Soul Insomnia” is an essential element of Purgatory, Prayers to the Saints, Prayers for the Dead, reincarnation, necromancy, and witchcraft, not to mention the foundation of the noxious “Eternal Conscious Torment” that says that God is the author of more evil than the devil shall ever be capable of doing…

Luk 6:43-44 KJV
(43) For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
(44) For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

But what are the so dreadful “side effects” of what you have derided as “soul sleep?” Why is this so important to “avoid?”

Nath, I have a yahoo email address of marron_glaces. Drop me a line and we can talk.

Whoops! Milton’s quote in my last contribution “cenouced” should read “denounced”.

Regards
Andrew

It seemed like Demian was trying to make a point that “if this was a legitimate doctrine, it should have been more widely accepted.”

Yet I think he quoted Milton (in his Mother’s Day article) without realizing where he stood on this issue.

One could read through “Foxes Book of Martyrs” and not recognize the doctrines that these people stood for, and I’m only speaking of the cases where I have solid evidence in writing of where they stood on this subject, with notables such as Justin Martyr, Luther, Tyndale, Frith, and so forth.

Regardless, the “who supported this doctrine” is not a proper measure anyway. Shouldn’t we be looking at this “solas scriptures?” Famous names and traditions of men do not constitute proof.

Andrew Patrick,

I agree with you. Truth is not determined by a majority vote, otherwise one must conclude the reformers were obviously wrong to insist on justification by faith when the majority insisted it was by works.

Demian insists that Luke 23:43 is the “clincher”. But this is far from the case. Glenn over at his Beretta blog wrote a piece on this passage earlier this year which is worth reading. He puts it far better than I could: http://www.beretta-online.com/wordpress/index.php/luke-2343-and-soul-sleep/#more-1391 . I suggest those who think this passage supports the dualist view take time to read it.

Regards
Andrew

I think Demian has left the building lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW9yPT3MGXY

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