Fallen and Flawed

7. Do you love other Christians?

Are you only required to love other Christians? Is someone who hates atheists and muslims, but loves christians a True Christian? Does “neighbors” in Leviticus 19:18 only mean those who live next to you or believe as you do?

I have actually heard Christians say that neighbors mean only other christians. So, I just want to know what you think.

Robert, no, I’m not suggesting that’s all you have to do. Understand, this is not an exhaustive list of indicators.
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An ultimate list would certainly include “loving neighbors,” which Jesus defined just about everyone under the sun…including you. [But not in the gooey kind of way...the I care about you, your life, your health, your soul...that kind of love.]
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Furthermore, I’d question any person who claimed to be a Christian but hated atheists or Muslims or their neighbor. In fact, after I think about it, loving your neighbors would fall under no. 3, “Obey God’s command.” How did Jesus some up the Law and the Prophets? [I know you know this Robert. ]

How did Jesus some up the Law and the Prophets? [I know you know this Robert. ]

Matthew 22:37-40

Jesus quotes Leviticus 19:18 which is my all time favorite bible verse. Of course, this concept is not exclusive to christianity. I was just wondering how you defined “neighbor” as used in these verses. I have heard all kinds of answers to that one.

Robert…you kind of sound like that teacher of the law who asked Jesus, “Who’s my neighbor?”

Good point Demian! I actually learned something today. Next time those guys say that Jesus was only talking about other believers, I’ll point them to the good samaritan. Well done!

Great blog by the way. I have added you to my blogroll.

I think another one to add (which really might be more of a clarification of the first question) is do you love God and His word?
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We are currently battling this with a relative who claims to be a Christian but refuses to place any trust in the Bible.

It’s easy to read this superficially and say yes to all eleven questions. (Eric’s right, it does need a 12th to just make it more spiritual.)

But if we’re truly honest with ourselves we can spot weaknesses in some areas versus others.

So I went through the list again, and this time when I added up my score — oh, wow; is it 9:00 already?

We are currently battling this with a relative who claims to be a Christian but refuses to place any trust in the Bible.

Hey, don’t be too hard on him/her. Read Deuteronomy 21:18-21, then see if that strengthens your trust in the bible. There’s lots of reasons I don’t trust the bible.

Eric: Good point…I probably could’ve emphasized the love for God in the first point…but I kind of think you need love to want fellowship…but you’re right, I sacrificed it for brevity.
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Robert, I like your suggestion “don’t be too hard on him/her,” but what are we supposed to walk away with after reading Deuteronomy 21:18-21? What’s your understanding of the text?

Demian,
While I like this list and believe self examination is needed, there’s an element of subjectivity to many of these questions that may not allow them to always be a reliable indicator of our true relationship with God, or as the title of this post reads, “a true Christian.”

As Paul W. mentioned above, one could read the list and superficially say “yes” to these questions. I also think that one could superficially say “no” or “I don’t know” to them as well.

I don’t know about you, but depending on when I take my spiritual temperature, I can get a different reading each time.

At times, even recently, I could have answered “no” or “I don’t know” to nearly every question here. Does that mean I’m an apostate or not a true Christian? No it doesn’t. What it usually means is that, like Jacob, I’m wrestling with God about something and being honest with Him about where I’m at. Or it could mean I’m under some strong spiritual attack, or, as is often the case, a combination of both.

Spiritual growth can be a very painful process. Think pruning, cutting, weeding… these things hurt. Sometimes the pain is all we see or feel. How we see or feel about something colors our perceptions of reality, which will effect our honest answers to these questions.

During times like these if you were to ask me if I enjoy a close relationship with God or Christ, I’d have one experiential answer at that moment and I’d have a different historical or heart answer based on walking with Him for 38 years. It would pretty much be the same with the remaining 10 questions.

It’s at times like these when the truth we find in His Word is the only reliable reality, the only true measure of our actual spiritual condition. When I read Romans 8:38 and cling to the fact that nothing can separate me from His love, or read Jeremiah 29 and feed off the hope that He actually has a good plan for me, these are the things that remind me that I’m His son, regardless of how I’m feeling at the time, which will be reflected in how I answer these 11 questions at that moment.

I’m not so sure these are “sure-fire” ways to know if you’re a true Christian. I think if you can answer the question, “Is God truly your Father because of the blood of Christ?” and can honestly say “yes”, with the same certainty that you can for your own physical parents, then to me that’s the true measure of whether you are a son or not.

All of these other questions, while helpful, may not always provide the “true” answers and can often depend on when they are asked.

By all means, let us measure ourselves as we are told to do in Scripture. But let’s also remember that God always has the long view in mind. We too can rest assured that if we let Him, He’ll lead us into an authentic life with Him.

I can tell you from my experience it will not always be a smooth linear growth path, nor will it be without seasons of doubt or times when you’ll answer “no” or “I don’t know” to many of these questions. But I’ll also tell you that regardless of the answers, He still loves you more than you’ll ever fathom.

Hey Richard, I’m skeptical of a litmus test based on the certainty of answering “Is God truly your father because of the blood of Christ?” because, as you see, each atheist I’ve interviewed up to this point…and some I’ve talked to…assured me they believed this with certainty. It allows confusion over head knowledge with heart transformation.
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Furthermore, I understand what you’re saying with the ups and downs of spiritual life and not allowing our feelings to dictate how we’d answer these questions at different times of our lives…but I do want to point out…and I didn’t do a very good job here, obviously…that we don’t answer these questions based on how you feel…but actually how we are living.
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For instance, the first time I answered these questions it WAS apparent that my life…the way I lived…didn’t match up to what 1 John was saying. My fruit exposed the hypocrisy in my heart. Read my before and after answers to see what I mean.
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Throughout 1 John, John is saying that authentic Christians do this. Fake Christians do that. The book serves as a mirror, then, for our actions. I always appreciate your thoughtful replies. Hope that helps.

D,

Ah, I now see what you mean.

Thanks!

… but what are we supposed to walk away with after reading Deuteronomy 21:18-21? What’s your understanding of the text?

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Would you trust a book that tells you to have your children killed if they are rebellious? It doesn’t help to say that this law was for the Jews 3000 years ago, either. It would be brutal today and it was just as brutal back then.
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I’ve been told that the verse means an adult son. Even so, it’s still brutal to stone your own son to death. Whether he’s 5 years old or 40, it’s still unthinkable to me. Also, the verses are not clear enough. Someone can interpret that to mean a child. That verse is one of the main reasons why I gave up on inerrancy.

D,

But one thing I don’t get, how can an atheist believe that God is his Father and that he is saved by the blood of Christ?

Isn’t that diametrically opposed to the definition of an atheist? Or am I missing something?

Richard, good distinction. I don’t believe an atheist could say it, you’re right…but a false convert, yes. We know that even demons believed in God.

Demons still do

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But one thing I don’t get, how can an atheist believe that God is his Father and that he is saved by the blood of Christ?

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As an atheist, I don’t. As a former Christian, I did.
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I think that’s what Demian was getting at.

Robert, you’ve got it.

Robert: By the way, you said that Deuteronomy 21:18-21 was one of the main reasons you gave up on inerrancy…how so? I agree the passage is morally repugnant, but I’m not sure moral repugnance makes something false. Let me know if I’m following you right.

Got it! Thanks, Robert and Demian.

I agree the passage is morally repugnant, but I’m not sure moral repugnance makes something false. Let me know if I’m following you right.

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Because, it was God who was telling Moses to write these things down as Law. It is written as Moses speaking the word of God. IOW, it is God telling people to kill their children.

Here are a few notes on the topic of moral repugnance of Deuteronomy:
1. Keep in mind, that the church and state were not separated at that time. Because they were one entity, a sin against the church was also a sin against the state. The state was given authority by God to kill people. (this doesn’t by any means clear the whole thing up, but keep it in mind.)
2. If we object to the killing of a sinner, what grounds do we use to do so? Are you claiming that the sin was not serious enough? If so, by what standard? The truth is, every sin sentences the transgressor to death apart from Salvation.
3. I also see the harsh punishment for rebellion against the institution of the family to mean that the protection of the institution of the family was taken far more seriously than we take it today. While today, we’d say that that treason against your country is worthy of death, and rebellion against the family is no big deal, I think the Old Testament shows that God placed a higher priority on the family than we do now. I take this to mean that God was serious about protecting the family because the family itself was foundational to all of society. We do not see it that way today, and wonder of all wonders, we have a society that is falling apart while rejecting God’s plan for the family (rejecting God’s plan in the sense that we do not value the family as we should, not that we don’t kill children for rebellion).

An honest question: When the law said to stone the rebellious son, how far did that rebellion have to go? Because at some point, rebellion could be serious enough to make death seem at least a little more “reasonable”.

At some point in the transition from the Old Testament / Old Covenant to the New Testament / New Covenant, the death penalty for rebellion was revoked. I think that is partly due to the fact that Christ separated the church from the state, but how that worked and why I am honestly unable to explain. (I have been asking for an answer to this, still haven’t found it. It is clear that there is a church-state separation in the NT vs. the OT, but how did that come about?).

In light of all of the above, Deuteronomy is a set of commands to protect the people, the family, and the state itself. If we challenge God’s way of handling things, by what ground do we do so? I am not saying we can’t, but what grounds do we use?

On another note, I just wrote a similar post on questions the Christian should ask himself.
I would add that a true Christian not only can answer the questions affirmatively, but also shows progress in his/her spiritual walk. Not a linear path upward (as Richard points out above), but nonetheless, an upward trend. This is not to say that if you are not showing progress, you are not a true Christian. Our growth is compared to a tree many times in Scripture, and it is possible for an unhealthy tree to at times cease growing for a tough season.
However, a Christian that has ceased to grow is unhealthy, and makes it more difficult to defend the validity of his/her professed faith.
See: http://tinyurl.com/10-Questions-to-Diagnose

Excellent discussion! On the church/state issue, let’s be clear first of all that what Daniel has brought up is NOT the same as the so-called U.S. Constitutional separation of church from state. That concept is grossly misrepresented by many, but is not the topic for this thread.
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It had not occurred to me to study this matter, but here’s what I’ve picked up by observation: In the OT, God’s people was a physical nation, a people recognized by its ancestry OR by the inclusion of outsider individuals and families through acts of conversion and acceptance. This latter means was a forerunner of the broadscale inclusion of the gentile world into the blessings of Abraham that would be ushered into being by Jesus Christ and those who would follow Him.
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What has happened since the cross, resurrection, ascension, and Pentecost is that the people of God is no longer merely a physical nation, but a spiritual nation of kings and priests whose homeland is not physical Canaan, but a city and country which is “eternal in the heavens.”
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There is still death for those who claim citizenship yet choose to live in opposition to the Lord’s commandments. It is no longer physically administered or suffered, but spiritually (“the second death”).

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But I’m still curious on how moral repugnance leads to unbelief…cause as much as pedophiles disgust me, they still exist. Not believing in them doesn’t make them go away. Robert?

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I did your test and I got 3 out of 11. I guess I’m to scared of God to try to be his friend even though I love him, I know It sounds weird but… how can I love someone that’s evaluating me all of the time? how can be friends with someone that asks me to change who I am just to be with him? I always felt like a failure because I want others to experience God’s love but nobody listens to me and now I know It’s because I’m not a reflection of God’s love. =(

Oriana: No reason t be scared…Christ died so that there is now no condemnation for those who believe.

You can have total and final assurance that God is not evaluating you, but accepts you as he sees you through Jesus..

Here’s a resource from this website to help you: Official Guide to Sharing Your Faith.

Let me know if that helps.

“It is clear that there is a church-state separation in the NT vs. the OT, but how did that come about?”

Didn’t it start when Israel wanted a king like the nations around them? At that point you had Saul in civil authority, and Samuel in spiritual authority?

The Question: Do you love Other Christians?

Answer: Matthew 22:36-40 (New International Version)

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”